Fair/Foul Two Man Crew Situation (From a Dad)

[David B]

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

You guys are my bible for all things "official." I'm a proud dad who apprecitates the men in blue, and I want to make sure I know what I'm talking about when something comes up. Here's the scenario tonight; I would appreciate any feedback and please forgive any butchered terminology:

My son's Junior Division Little League team (FED rules I think) playing horribly but hanging in 3-0 to first place team with a two man crew. Lead off batter hits shot down the line, PU signals audibly "foul" while the BU is pointing fair. Ball was untouched as it went down the line and past first base. All players kept playing the ball as fair. BR ends up on third. Umpires confer and BR is sent back home and "foul ball" stands.

From what I've read, the PU has the call until the ball passes first base, then the BU has the call. I didn't hear the explantion the umpire gave the coach, but does his "foul" call kill the play even if it wasn't his call to make? The defense did not react to the foul call, nor did the runner. Our team is out of the playoff hunt, but is this something our manager could/should have protested?

To be fair, I must admit that I didn't agree with several call the umpires made all game, but I know those were judgement calls and that's how games go sometimes.

Many Thanks in advance!

Happens all the time. What's so sad is that these type of plays can be so easily eliminated if umpires would just talk about things like this before the game begins.

But, most of our summer league umpires simply show up, put on the gear, and walk out on the field to call the games without ever discussing anything about baseball.

I feel your pain, my son is playing 11-12 year ball right now and it's pretty bad. Last night we had a balk call that got the winning run in - umpire said the F1 had to step back to throw to third (from the set position)

We questioned it, but to no avail. Just have to keep on playing.

Thanks
David

[More Cowbell]

Thanks for the feedback; we kept on playing, but even worse than before. Error after error and we lose 6-0. Can we protest the play of our own team?

Do any of you guys engage in discussion/explanation with (rational) parents after a game if asked to clarify? Or is this a cardinal no-no? I know "rational parent" is somewhat oxymoronic.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

Thanks for the feedback; we kept on playing, but even worse than before. Error after error and we lose 6-0. Can we protest the play of our own team?

Do any of you guys engage in discussion/explanation with (rational) parents after a game if asked to clarify? Or is this a cardinal no-no? I know "rational parent" is somewhat oxymoronic.

Rules questions, yes. Judgment questions, no. It also depends how the parent approaches: "May I ask you a question about the rules?" is generally non-threatening.

[More Cowbell]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Rules questions, yes. Judgment questions, no. It also depends how the parent approaches: "May I ask you a question about the rules?" is generally non-threatening.

In my scenario, would you consider that judgement or rules? Again, in this particular game the outcome would not have changed; I guess part of me just wants to hear the guy say, "Yeah, I blew it." (Of course I don't like saying that, but it's not about me!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

In my scenario, would you consider that judgment or rules? Again, in this particular game the outcome would not have changed; I guess part of me just wants to hear the guy say, "Yeah, I blew it." (Of course I don't like saying that, but it's not about me!

Actually, your question has more to do with mechanics. Again, your approach to this type of question might determine whether you get an answer. "Can I ask what happened on that foul ball call in the 7th inning?" might get a more informative answer than "So are you guys going to admit that you screwed up?"

Then, listen. Don't argue. If you have one follow-up question, you can ask that. Thank them for their time. There's no point in arguing with them.

Ordinarily I would not discuss a controversial situation with a fan until I'd had a chance to discuss it privately with my partner first.

[DG]

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

Do any of you guys engage in discussion/explanation with (rational) parents after a game if asked to clarify? Or is this a cardinal no-no? I know "rational parent" is somewhat oxymoronic.

I don't mind talking to rational parents with rational questions after a game. They will typically tell others and greater understanding is achieved.

If they are coming at me with a complaint I will give them a direct look in the eye and not speak, and keep walking.

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by DG

I don't mind talking to rational parents with rational questions after a game. They will typically tell others and greater understanding is achieved.

Especially if they've got a full cooler with them and are sharing.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by David B

Happens all the time. What's so sad is that these type of plays can be so easily eliminated if umpires would just talk about things like this before the game begins.

But, most of our summer league umpires simply show up, put on the gear, and walk out on the field to call the games without ever discussing anything about baseball.

I feel your pain, my son is playing 11-12 year ball right now and it's pretty bad. Last night we had a balk call that got the winning run in - umpire said the F1 had to step back to throw to third (from the set position)

We questioned it, but to no avail. Just have to keep on playing.

Thanks
David

Should have protested.

Did you show him the rule after the game?

[David B]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Should have protested.

Did you show him the rule after the game?

Yea, our league doesn't allow protests, but I did show him the rule.

He apologized, but plainly he did not know much about balks at all.

Sad thing is that he knows I'm an umpire also, so he should have known something was wrong.

I blame PU also because he could have called time, walked out and talked with BU and correct this, he either didn't know the rule also or just was too weak to go there.

Oh well, I did ask him to tell my F1 that he had missed the call so the kid will realize we had coached him correctly. Said he would.

Thanks
DAvid

[tballump]

Originally Posted by David B

Y
Oh well, I did ask him to tell my F1 that he had missed the call so the kid will realize we had coached him correctly. Said he would.

Thanks
DAvid

IMHO this is not Japan where the umpires apologize to the teams and crowd. I think you as the coach(or if you are not the coach you could have told the coach of your conversation), should have explained to your player that you had talked to the umpire and that the umpire had told you that they missed the call, and that the team has been coached properly. If the player does not believe his own coach without hearing the words from the umpire directly, something is wrong in the coach/player relationship, especially when trust is not there.

To have the ump come over to the kid after privately telling the coach, is just rubbing salt in the wound and is just like showing up the umpire. A mistake was made and privately admitted to you the coach (or team representative) and an umpire yourself. The umpire now knows for next time which is exactly the outcome desired. Time to move on. Once again IMHO.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Did you show him the rule after the game?

No coach should ever do this or any parent. Only fellow umpires that this umpire KNOWS is an umpire. Otherwise, go to the UIC and let him know so he can explain the rule to the umpire if the umpire is willing to listen to anyone.

Do not approach the umpire with a rule book b/c nothing good may come of it.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

No coach should ever do this or any parent. Only fellow umpires that this umpire KNOWS is an umpire. Otherwise, go to the UIC and let him know so he can explain the rule to the umpire if the umpire is willing to listen to anyone.

Do not approach the umpire with a rule book b/c nothing good may come of it.

Why not? I can see not doing that during the game, of course, but what is wrong with approaching someone who kicked the living sh*t out of a rule in the game in a nice manner to enlighten them of the rules after the game? Of course you wouldn't do it beligerently and you have to use a bit of tact, but you shouldn't leave that umpire ignorant of a rule so he can go out and ruin the next game he works.

I hear people talk of the "UIC," which sounds like a LL term of which I am pretty unfamiliar. Out here we work in associations, and have no "UIC" to go run and tell. If you don't straighten the umpire out right there on the spot, he is liable to never know that he has misapplied a rule.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Why not? I can see not doing that during the game, of course, but what is wrong with approaching someone who kicked the living sh*t out of a rule in the game in a nice manner to enlighten them of the rules after the game? Of course you wouldn't do it beligerently and you have to use a bit of tact, but you shouldn't leave that umpire ignorant of a rule so he can go out and ruin the next game he works.

I hear people talk of the "UIC," which sounds like a LL term of which I am pretty unfamiliar. Out here we work in associations, and have no "UIC" to go run and tell. If you don't straighten the umpire out right there on the spot, he is liable to never know that he has misapplied a rule.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I don't know. Maybe this is why. How should I have handled this I think this conversation has been gone through before and nothing good came from it as you can see.

UIC, assignor, or whatever you want to call them. They are the ones to inform so they can inform their umpires. Do not approach an umpire with a rule book in hand even if the game is over. Nothing good may come of it. And, instead of testing to see if this may be the exception, handle it the same way every time and nothing like what happened in the other thread will happen.

Leave to the umpire's assignor(or whoever is in charge) to inform them. Not just some Joe Blow off the street who the umpire has no clue about. B/c that person may not have any clue of what they are talking about. And, like it or not, even if the game is over, approaching the umpire with a rule book is trying to show him up. Only difference now is he can't kick your a$$ out of the game and send you home packing. That is just cowardice at best. Leave it to a Rat(and this applies to anyone trying this same tactic whether it is a parent/player/coach/umpire) to do that.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I don't know. Maybe this is why. How should I have handled this I think this conversation has been gone through before and nothing good came from it as you can see.

UIC, assignor, or whatever you want to call them. They are the ones to inform so they can inform their umpires. Do not approach an umpire with a rule book in hand even if the game is over. Nothing good may come of it. And, instead of testing to see if this may be the exception, handle it the same way every time and nothing like what happened in the other thread will happen.

Leave to the umpire's assignor(or whoever is in charge) to inform them. Not just some Joe Blow off the street who the umpire has no clue about. B/c that person may not have any clue of what they are talking about. And, like it or not, even if the game is over, approaching the umpire with a rule book is trying to show him up. Only difference now is he can't kick your a$$ out of the game and send you home packing. That is just cowardice at best. Leave it to a Rat(and this applies to anyone trying this same tactic whether it is a parent/player/coach/umpire) to do that.

Well, first off, I'm no Joe Blow off the street, I am a well-known and long-time respected umpire, and when I give advice to rooks who don't know hay from horse manure, they usually thank me for setting them straight. I don't know as much about umpiring as my assignor, since he has about 60 years of umpiring experience to my 20+, but I'll wager I know at least as much as the majority of assignors out there. I wasn't talking about some yokel off the street, I was talking about a brother umpire clueing in a misguided arbiter.

Secondly, if a coach approaches in a manner that is not confrontational, he could perhaps suggest that the umpire missed a rule, then ask the umpire to pull out his rule book just to double check. I would welcome such a challenge from a coach. I've never had one that knew a rule and I didn't. Lucky I guess.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Well, first off, I'm no Joe Blow off the street, I am a well-known and long-time respected umpire, and when I give advice to rooks who don't know hay from horse manure, they usually thank me for setting them straight. I don't know as much about umpiring as my assignor, since he has about 60 years of umpiring experience to my 20+, but I'll wager I know at least as much as the majority of assignors out there. I wasn't talking about some yokel off the street, I was talking about a brother umpire clueing in a misguided arbiter.

Secondly, if a coach approaches in a manner that is not confrontational, he could perhaps suggest that the umpire missed a rule, then ask the umpire to pull out his rule book just to double check. I would welcome such a challenge from a coach. I've never had one that knew a rule and I didn't. Lucky I guess.

To me, you are some Joe Blow. And, as I said, if the umpire doesn't know you are an umpire, then leave them alone. The last thing any umpire wants to hear is "I have been umpiring X years" b/c Rats will try anything.

Second, Rats will try not to be confrontational until they don't get their way. All do it, even the pros. So, none of this means a thing. Just look at how the one acted in the other thread. He started nice until he didn't get his way.

It's funny how so many will jump on a Rat they don't know is an umpire. But, let one of the supposed umpires pull the same thing as a Rat, and so many on this forum will agree. That is amazing to me. I wonder if those like that are that inconsistent on the field. Possibly. Hmmm. Flip flop on this forum, I wonder if they flip flop on the field with their calls. Hmmmm.