Fair/Foul Two Man Crew Situation (From a Dad)

[More Cowbell]

You guys are my bible for all things "official." I'm a proud dad who apprecitates the men in blue, and I want to make sure I know what I'm talking about when something comes up. Here's the scenario tonight; I would appreciate any feedback and please forgive any butchered terminology:

My son's Junior Division Little League team (FED rules I think) playing horribly but hanging in 3-0 to first place team with a two man crew. Lead off batter hits shot down the line, PU signals audibly "foul" while the BU is pointing fair. Ball was untouched as it went down the line and past first base. All players kept playing the ball as fair. BR ends up on third. Umpires confer and BR is sent back home and "foul ball" stands.

From what I've read, the PU has the call until the ball passes first base, then the BU has the call. I didn't hear the explantion the umpire gave the coach, but does his "foul" call kill the play even if it wasn't his call to make? The defense did not react to the foul call, nor did the runner. Our team is out of the playoff hunt, but is this something our manager could/should have protested?

To be fair, I must admit that I didn't agree with several call the umpires made all game, but I know those were judgement calls and that's how games go sometimes.

Many Thanks in advance!

[dash_riprock]

BU has fair/foul from the bag and beyond. PU stepped on BU's call, but once he called it foul, it was irreversible. Not protestable either.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

To be fair, I must admit that I didn't agree with several call the umpires made all game, but I know those were judgment calls and that's how games go sometimes.

Get used to that. We see what we want to see, which is why scientific research must be done with double blind controls, peer review, etc.

The only unbiased observers routinely at your son's ballgames are the umpires.

[Forest Ump]

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

From what I've read, the PU has the call until the ball passes first base, then the BU has the call.

This is the correct mechanic on a proper field. In actuality, most fields in small ball do not have foul poles or lines extending very far past the bases. When we encounter fields of this caliber, the plate umpire will take all fair/foul calls. This should always be discussed in the umpires pre-game meeting so that what happened in your son's game doesn’t happen.

[David B]

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

You guys are my bible for all things "official." I'm a proud dad who apprecitates the men in blue, and I want to make sure I know what I'm talking about when something comes up. Here's the scenario tonight; I would appreciate any feedback and please forgive any butchered terminology:

My son's Junior Division Little League team (FED rules I think) playing horribly but hanging in 3-0 to first place team with a two man crew. Lead off batter hits shot down the line, PU signals audibly "foul" while the BU is pointing fair. Ball was untouched as it went down the line and past first base. All players kept playing the ball as fair. BR ends up on third. Umpires confer and BR is sent back home and "foul ball" stands.

From what I've read, the PU has the call until the ball passes first base, then the BU has the call. I didn't hear the explantion the umpire gave the coach, but does his "foul" call kill the play even if it wasn't his call to make? The defense did not react to the foul call, nor did the runner. Our team is out of the playoff hunt, but is this something our manager could/should have protested?

To be fair, I must admit that I didn't agree with several call the umpires made all game, but I know those were judgement calls and that's how games go sometimes.

Many Thanks in advance!

Happens all the time. What's so sad is that these type of plays can be so easily eliminated if umpires would just talk about things like this before the game begins.

But, most of our summer league umpires simply show up, put on the gear, and walk out on the field to call the games without ever discussing anything about baseball.

I feel your pain, my son is playing 11-12 year ball right now and it's pretty bad. Last night we had a balk call that got the winning run in - umpire said the F1 had to step back to throw to third (from the set position)

We questioned it, but to no avail. Just have to keep on playing.

Thanks
David

[More Cowbell]

Thanks for the feedback; we kept on playing, but even worse than before. Error after error and we lose 6-0. Can we protest the play of our own team?

Do any of you guys engage in discussion/explanation with (rational) parents after a game if asked to clarify? Or is this a cardinal no-no? I know "rational parent" is somewhat oxymoronic.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

Thanks for the feedback; we kept on playing, but even worse than before. Error after error and we lose 6-0. Can we protest the play of our own team?

Do any of you guys engage in discussion/explanation with (rational) parents after a game if asked to clarify? Or is this a cardinal no-no? I know "rational parent" is somewhat oxymoronic.

Rules questions, yes. Judgment questions, no. It also depends how the parent approaches: "May I ask you a question about the rules?" is generally non-threatening.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by David B

Happens all the time. What's so sad is that these type of plays can be so easily eliminated if umpires would just talk about things like this before the game begins.

But, most of our summer league umpires simply show up, put on the gear, and walk out on the field to call the games without ever discussing anything about baseball.

I feel your pain, my son is playing 11-12 year ball right now and it's pretty bad. Last night we had a balk call that got the winning run in - umpire said the F1 had to step back to throw to third (from the set position)

We questioned it, but to no avail. Just have to keep on playing.

Thanks
David

Should have protested.

Did you show him the rule after the game?

[More Cowbell]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Rules questions, yes. Judgment questions, no. It also depends how the parent approaches: "May I ask you a question about the rules?" is generally non-threatening.

In my scenario, would you consider that judgement or rules? Again, in this particular game the outcome would not have changed; I guess part of me just wants to hear the guy say, "Yeah, I blew it." (Of course I don't like saying that, but it's not about me!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

In my scenario, would you consider that judgment or rules? Again, in this particular game the outcome would not have changed; I guess part of me just wants to hear the guy say, "Yeah, I blew it." (Of course I don't like saying that, but it's not about me!

Actually, your question has more to do with mechanics. Again, your approach to this type of question might determine whether you get an answer. "Can I ask what happened on that foul ball call in the 7th inning?" might get a more informative answer than "So are you guys going to admit that you screwed up?"

Then, listen. Don't argue. If you have one follow-up question, you can ask that. Thank them for their time. There's no point in arguing with them.

Ordinarily I would not discuss a controversial situation with a fan until I'd had a chance to discuss it privately with my partner first.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Should have protested.

Did you show him the rule after the game?

Yea, our league doesn't allow protests, but I did show him the rule.

He apologized, but plainly he did not know much about balks at all.

Sad thing is that he knows I'm an umpire also, so he should have known something was wrong.

I blame PU also because he could have called time, walked out and talked with BU and correct this, he either didn't know the rule also or just was too weak to go there.

Oh well, I did ask him to tell my F1 that he had missed the call so the kid will realize we had coached him correctly. Said he would.

Thanks
DAvid

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

You guys are my bible for all things "official." I'm a proud dad who apprecitates the men in blue, and I want to make sure I know what I'm talking about when something comes up. Here's the scenario tonight; I would appreciate any feedback and please forgive any butchered terminology:

My son's Junior Division Little League team (FED rules I think) playing horribly but hanging in 3-0 to first place team with a two man crew. Lead off batter hits shot down the line, PU signals audibly "foul" while the BU is pointing fair. Ball was untouched as it went down the line and past first base. All players kept playing the ball as fair. BR ends up on third. Umpires confer and BR is sent back home and "foul ball" stands.

From what I've read, the PU has the call until the ball passes first base, then the BU has the call. I didn't hear the explantion the umpire gave the coach, but does his "foul" call kill the play even if it wasn't his call to make? The defense did not react to the foul call, nor did the runner. Our team is out of the playoff hunt, but is this something our manager could/should have protested?

To be fair, I must admit that I didn't agree with several call the umpires made all game, but I know those were judgement calls and that's how games go sometimes.

Many Thanks in advance!

Hey, I love your user name! I'm a huge fan of Blue Öyster Cult, and that's the only thing (Don't Fear) The Reaper needs more of!!!

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Hey, I love your user name! I'm a huge fan of Blue Öyster Cult, and that's the only thing (Don't Fear) The Reaper needs more of!!!

And yet, you've never commented on my signature.

[tballump]

Originally Posted by David B

Y
Oh well, I did ask him to tell my F1 that he had missed the call so the kid will realize we had coached him correctly. Said he would.

Thanks
DAvid

IMHO this is not Japan where the umpires apologize to the teams and crowd. I think you as the coach(or if you are not the coach you could have told the coach of your conversation), should have explained to your player that you had talked to the umpire and that the umpire had told you that they missed the call, and that the team has been coached properly. If the player does not believe his own coach without hearing the words from the umpire directly, something is wrong in the coach/player relationship, especially when trust is not there.

To have the ump come over to the kid after privately telling the coach, is just rubbing salt in the wound and is just like showing up the umpire. A mistake was made and privately admitted to you the coach (or team representative) and an umpire yourself. The umpire now knows for next time which is exactly the outcome desired. Time to move on. Once again IMHO.

[DonInKansas]

I've booted this one before. Watched a ball draw chalk down the line, brain said safe, yet somehow I found my arms up and "FOUL" coming out of my mouth. The OC comes down the line and must have seen the sheepish look on my face because all he asked me was "you know why I'm here, right?" I replied with "Yeah I know, but once it's called foul, it's foul forever."

Fortunately it was summer ball and not JUCO league play or he'd have probably watched the rest from the parking lot after letting me know about my ineptitude a lot more forcefully.