Hole in outfield fence at the base of the fence.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

He then reached through the ball to retreive the ball thinking that the ball was dead, which we know that while it is dead, it really isn't dead until the BU goes out and inspects the situation. .

It's dead as soon as it goes through the fence. The umpire uses all information available (seeing the ball; seeing the players) to make that decision.

If you weren't duped, then the correct call is a book-rule double.

[waltjp]

If were told during the plate conference that there are spots in the outfield that would allow a ball to pass through or under a fence we make a point of telling the managers that the outfielder should raise his hand so the base ump can go out and check. We also tell the managers that the runners should keep running - we'll reset them if the ball is indeed, out of play. Our final statement is that if the fielder reaches for the ball after raising his hand we're going to judge that the ball is still in play.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by waltjp

If were told during the plate conference that there are spots in the outfield that would allow a ball to pass through or under a fence we make a point of telling the managers that the outfielder should raise his hand so the base ump can go out and check. We also tell the managers that the runners should keep running - we'll reset them if the ball is indeed, out of play. Our final statement is that if the fielder reaches for the ball after raising his hand we're going to judge that the ball is still in play.

And that's all correct mechanics. But that's not in dispute.

I believe that the question in the OP was: what do you do when an umpire (improperly) yells "TIME" after the player reaches through the fence and picks up the ball?

Bob has mentioned the FED rule about "fixing" situations where an umpire's reversed call puts a team at a disadvantage. I am not sure, however, that we can apply that principle here: it's not possible to reverse a call of "TIME." The OP is different from the casebook play where R1 steals, PU calls ball 4 on a check swing, R1 slows down and is tagged, then BU overrules and calls the batter out on strikes. That's a clear case of a reversed call putting one team at a disadvantage.

I was originally in favor of this ruling, but Bob reminded us of the proper phrasing of the relevant principle. Now I think we have to match the OBR ruling: the umpire screwed up by calling "TIME," but that made the ball dead, and runners cannot advance on a dead ball. Runner back to 2B, umpire open wide.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Our final statement is that if the fielder reaches for the ball after raising his hand we're going to judge that the ball is still in play.

The ball is either in play or out of play and that really has nothing to do with whether someone is trying to play it. If I see it go out of play from 300 feet away I don't care if the kid reaches or not, it's out. If I *can't* tell, then we need to get a better look and once I see it out of play or in play I'm going to rule accordingly.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The ball is either in play or out of play and that really has nothing to do with whether someone is trying to play it. If I see it go out of play from 300 feet away I don't care if the kid reaches or not, it's out. If I *can't* tell, then we need to get a better look and once I see it out of play or in play I'm going to rule accordingly.

Rich, what do you rule when the OF raises his hand to indicate that the ball is out of play and you can't see the ball? As you start out he bends down an picks up the ball and throws it in. In doing so his body shielded you from seeing where the ball was.

All you have now is an OF claiming the ball was out of play but you have no visual evidence to verify that.

Meanwhile, the BR slowed while heading for second base when he saw the OF's arm go up. The BR is eventually thrown out at the plate, or is safe.

Depending on the call one of the managers is coming out to plead his case.

[johnnyg08]

tough...the coaches need to coach their players to round the bases...you make the call, not the outfielders.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's dead as soon as it goes through the fence. The umpire uses all information available (seeing the ball; seeing the players) to make that decision.

If you weren't duped, then the correct call is a book-rule double.

Bob:

The point I am trying to make is that we as the umpires never had a chance to rule as to whether the ball was out or not because the player, after raising his hands, apparently reached through the hole in the fence and retrieved the ball. Kids do the darndest things.

MTD, Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Rich, what do you rule when the OF raises his hand to indicate that the ball is out of play and you can't see the ball? As you start out he bends down an picks up the ball and throws it in. In doing so his body shielded you from seeing where the ball was.

All you have now is an OF claiming the ball was out of play but you have no visual evidence to verify that.

Meanwhile, the BR slowed while heading for second base when he saw the OF's arm go up. The BR is eventually thrown out at the plate, or is safe.

Depending on the call one of the managers is coming out to plead his case.

That's the offense's fault. Defensive players try to deke the offense all the time -- and, dpeending on the specific rules set and the specific actions, it's legal.

On the OP, if I didn't see the ball OOP, then I'll assume it was just a deke -- and shame on me (or my crew) for calling time.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That's the offense's fault. Defensive players try to deke the offense all the time -- and, dpeending on the specific rules set and the specific actions, it's legal.

On the OP, if I didn't see the ball OOP, then I'll assume it was just a deke -- and shame on me (or my crew) for calling time.

That's exactly my point. Keep the runners running and if it looks like the defense is playing the ball before I get to check on its status I'm considering it still in play.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Well, ladies and "germs" "IT" happened again last night. MTD, Jr. and I were umpiring a boys' 14U travel league (with MTD, Jr. behind the plate naturally, you don't think I am going to work the plate with a young stud like Jr. I can stick behind the plate do you? )

Top of the 4th inning and the V's are up 7 to 1 with 2 outs and runners on 1st and 3rd. V's batter hits a blast (into the wind to boot) that clears the fence by at least 10 ft in the left field power alley. H's F7 and F8 run to the fence and watch and can do nothing but watch the ball go over the fence. F7 turns to the infield and signals HR at the same time that MTD, Jr. is signalling a HR.

Now for the good part. F8 then turns toward the infield and calls out that the ball went through a hole in the fence. I call "time" and hustle (if you believed that I hustled, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you) out to the fence. Sure enough there is a hole in the fence along the ground, and the ball is lying on the ground outside the fence about 20 ft past the fence line. I look at F8 and asked him if he really thought a baseball that was hit that high coul roll through hole that far past the fence line. He looked at me and said the ball had some serious spin. I told him that HR stands and turned to the infield and signaled HR.

After the inning was over H's HC told MTD, Jr. that his F7 told him that the ball was way over the fence and thought that F8 was nuts trying to say the ball rolled through the fence.

MTD, Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Top of the 4th inning and the V's are up 7 to 1 with 2 outs and runners on 1st and 3rd. V's batter hits a blast (into the wind to boot) that clears the fence by at least 10 ft in the left field power alley. H's F7 and F8 run to the fence and watch and can do nothing but watch the ball go over the fence. F7 turns to the infield and signals HR at the same time that MTD, Jr. is signalling a HR.

I'm confused. Why wasn't the HR your call?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm confused. Why wasn't the HR your call?

Because, the sky was overcast and I lost the ball against the background of the clouds and looked to Mark for help. This ball was a towering blast for a player in this age group. I saw the ball go off the bat then lost it against the background of the clouds. I am getting old and am blind in one eye and can't see out of the other.

MTD, Sr.

[johnnyg08]

We had a situation last night that was a 3rd strike foul tip off of the catcher's glove, then the ball hit the ground, now foul ball. I was BU, PU was blocked. Here's a situation of a player seeing/thinking something that wasn't...after the ball tipped off of his glove I watched for it to hit the ground, at the time I saw it hit the ground, I called "foul ball." FED catcher was adament that he caught the ball and he probably believes that he still did. He did not. My point...we have to continue to go with what we see and stick to it because as somebody else posted in a different thread..we're the only neutral people at the game...people see what they want to see. From time to time, we'll have to eat one because somebody really did see it differently and maybe we were wrong...but we have to call what we see. Mark's homerun call is very similar. Cognitive Dissonance?

[bniu]

Originally Posted by Mrumpiresir

I'm curious as to why you put the runner on second base. The fielder duped the umpires into killing the ball when it should have remained live. The OP said the runner was rounding second and heading for third when time was called. I think it would be appropriate to award the runner the bases he would have attained, in the umpires judgement, if time had not been called. No way I'm letting the defense gain an advantage in this scenario.

it's best in most situations to simply let the play keep going. You can always send them back. I had a sitch where a shot up the 3rd base line, took a hop, looked like it hit the 3B's shin in fair territory and bounced foul before 3rd base. I called it fair, play happens, whatever...after the play, i go over to my partner and ask this question: "Did you see if the ball hit the 3B?", answer: "Definitely Not!" I rule foul, we send the batter back to hit, runners go back. The runners all just got some free exercise.