Video posted on the NFHS Discussion Forum.

[DG]

I got MC on runner and catcher.

My report on the double forfeit would read "it is impossible for me to provide all the numbers of both teams who left the bench to participate in this altercation, suffice to say that nearly all players on both teams left their benches and came onto the playing field."

In my state it takes 6 ejections for a team to be disqualified from playoffs for one year, and the 6 can happen in one game, so these teams would be done.

[tballump]

Did this film go to the Texas State High School Athletic Association? What did they rule? If they agreed with how the umpires handled this, then they do not care to enforce the player leaving the bench rule which seems to be in conflict with what everyone says the FED does care about in these situations.

If they saw the film and thought the game should be a double forfeit and overruled the umpires who continued to play like a pro game, then the State and the FED would have spoken that they wanted the player leaving the bench rule enforced and therefore without enough players left to play, the umpires could now call a double forfeit in the future.

How the State and Fed step to the plate on these instances, tells the umpires how to step up in these instances.

Since this was in 2008, how did the State say to handle this in 2009?

[johnnyg08]

This incident will almost certainly create a point of emphasis in next year's rules meetings.

[Bishopcolle]

Originally Posted by DG

I got MC on runner and catcher.

My report on the double forfeit would read "it is impossible for me to provide all the numbers of both teams who left the bench to participate in this altercation, suffice to say that nearly all players on both teams left their benches and came onto the playing field."

In my state it takes 6 ejections for a team to be disqualified from playoffs for one year, and the 6 can happen in one game, so these teams would be done.

I agree with DG, and disagree with Johnnyg08....no way you're gonna get the numbers of the participants in this brawl...better look at the bench and see who is left....Then forfeit for a lack of legal playing personnel....You are much better than me to get the numbers down in this situation.

I also think you've got your priorities mixed up, if you're trying to write numbers down when you should be separating kids, and stopping the fight...no time for writing.....IMHO

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

I also think you've got your priorities mixed up, if you're trying to write numbers down when you should be separating kids, and stopping the fight...no time for writing.....IMHO

No, you're being smart. Very little good can come of less than a handful of people attempting to separate a mass of this size.

[johnnyg08]

yep, I'm not losing a tooth or blowing out my knee trying to stop a bunch of kids from fighting...in my mind, that's not part of the job.

[Bishopcolle]

Originally Posted by Matt

No, you're being smart. Very little good can come of less than a handful of people attempting to separate a mass of this size.

Disagree....As a parent, if you do nothing other than save my kid some serious injury (not an ***-kicking, but serious), I would be grateful....If some video camera catches you writing, instead of separating--at least, trying to separate--than I think you have problems....And as I said, you're not going to be effective writing down numbers in this brawl...just busy work...

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

Disagree....As a parent, if you do nothing other than save my kid some serious injury (not an ***-kicking, but serious), I would be grateful....If some video camera catches you writing, instead of separating--at least, trying to separate--than I think you have problems....And as I said, you're not going to be effective writing down numbers in this brawl...just busy work...

You're not going to be effective attempting to break up a brawl, unless you use adequate force to incapacitate the participants. You also run the risk of being attacked yourself.

What's a video camera have to do with this, anyway? Are you implying the risk of a lawsuit? It's not going to be successful.

[jwwashburn]

No way on earth do I put my hands on a kid. Never, ever, ever.

I could get injured, the kid could get injured. No way...I would never even consider it.

Joe in Missouri

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Matt

You're not going to be effective attempting to break up a brawl, unless you use adequate force to incapacitate the participants. You also run the risk of being attacked yourself.

What's a video camera have to do with this, anyway? Are you implying the risk of a lawsuit? It's not going to be successful.

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

No way on earth do I put my hands on a kid. Never, ever, ever.

I could get injured, the kid could get injured. No way...I would never even consider it.

Joe in Missouri

These two posts are spot on.

Step back and take numbers - either the ones on the field or the ones left on the bench. Eject the offenders and go from there. Nothing good comes from touching a kid in a fight.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

Disagree....As a parent,

There's the problem. You're thinking like a parent, whereas we understand how to perform like an umpire.

Nothing good can come from physically getting involved. Our job is, to the best of our ability, record the violators.

[Bishopcolle]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

There's the problem. You're thinking like a parent, whereas we understand how to perform like an umpire.

Nothing good can come from physically getting involved. Our job is, to the best of our ability, record the violators.

Well, I can't disagree with you all...but I am NOT thinking as a parent, and that's my problem...I'm thinking as a 32-year cop....trying to establish some order without hands on (I agree with that), but you're right....too much cop trying to establish order...better to back off and sort it out long distance....
Whew! That's hard for me to do.....

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

I'm thinking as a 32-year cop

I'm not so sure that's why you thought you did...because I know I didn't have the same thought as you. I think you were probably thinking as a parent, as you initially stated.

[JR12]

[QUOTE=Bishopcolle;603720]Well, I can't disagree with you all...but I am NOT thinking as a parent, and that's my problem...I'm thinking as a 32-year cop....trying to establish some order without hands on (I agree with that), but you're right....too much cop trying to establish order...better to back off and sort it out long distance....
Whew! That's hard for me to do.....[/QUOTE

I'm a cop too, however my dept says off duty the only REQUIREMENT is to call 911.If I decide to take action I run the risk of civil liability and a possible IA complaint. Also I rarely do games in the jurisdiction I work. Therefore if I would write down numbers, don't touch anyone, ensure the ON DUTY Police are called, make ejections, be a good witness, That way I make my assoc. and department happy!
Old motto from an old timer cop. "If you put your hands on someone, lock them up"!

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

Well, I can't disagree with you all...but I am NOT thinking as a parent, and that's my problem...I'm thinking as a 32-year cop....trying to establish some order without hands on (I agree with that), but you're right....too much cop trying to establish order...better to back off and sort it out long distance....
Whew! That's hard for me to do.....

It's easy! You're hang-up is your badge! That is what allows you do become "involved" in an altercation. Umpires are officials but not police. We cannot become involved with the altercation once it starts. We can try and prevent it, but once it starts, the law is not with us if we get involved.

Example: Police officer grabs Player1 by the arm and Player2 punches Player1 in the face breaking his jaw. The officer is not sued for holding the arm of Player1. We as sports officials would be.