Video posted on the NFHS Discussion Forum.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

johnny,

Any player who left his position or bench to participate in this melee is unequivocally in violation of a rule (3-1-1q) that mandates ejection - no "warning" necessary.

You also might want to read the Case Play Bob J. cited (3.31JJ) which makes it perfectly clear that David B.'s "unless they make contact" criteria is utter nonsense and clearly at odds with FED's intentions in adjudication of situations such as this.

JM

This interpretation also makes the ruling similar as football and basketball, which I think is something that the Fed wants in this situation.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Welpe

This interpretation also makes the ruling similar as football and basketball, which I think is something that the Fed wants in this situation.

Not just FED: many state associations (including mine) want these rules enforced.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Not just FED: many state associations (including mine) want these rules enforced.

Good point. I guess my post was comparing the Federation rules and their intent between various sports.

[DG]

I got MC on runner and catcher.

My report on the double forfeit would read "it is impossible for me to provide all the numbers of both teams who left the bench to participate in this altercation, suffice to say that nearly all players on both teams left their benches and came onto the playing field."

In my state it takes 6 ejections for a team to be disqualified from playoffs for one year, and the 6 can happen in one game, so these teams would be done.

[tballump]

Did this film go to the Texas State High School Athletic Association? What did they rule? If they agreed with how the umpires handled this, then they do not care to enforce the player leaving the bench rule which seems to be in conflict with what everyone says the FED does care about in these situations.

If they saw the film and thought the game should be a double forfeit and overruled the umpires who continued to play like a pro game, then the State and the FED would have spoken that they wanted the player leaving the bench rule enforced and therefore without enough players left to play, the umpires could now call a double forfeit in the future.

How the State and Fed step to the plate on these instances, tells the umpires how to step up in these instances.

Since this was in 2008, how did the State say to handle this in 2009?

[johnnyg08]

This incident will almost certainly create a point of emphasis in next year's rules meetings.

[Bishopcolle]

Originally Posted by DG

I got MC on runner and catcher.

My report on the double forfeit would read "it is impossible for me to provide all the numbers of both teams who left the bench to participate in this altercation, suffice to say that nearly all players on both teams left their benches and came onto the playing field."

In my state it takes 6 ejections for a team to be disqualified from playoffs for one year, and the 6 can happen in one game, so these teams would be done.

I agree with DG, and disagree with Johnnyg08....no way you're gonna get the numbers of the participants in this brawl...better look at the bench and see who is left....Then forfeit for a lack of legal playing personnel....You are much better than me to get the numbers down in this situation.

I also think you've got your priorities mixed up, if you're trying to write numbers down when you should be separating kids, and stopping the fight...no time for writing.....IMHO

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

I also think you've got your priorities mixed up, if you're trying to write numbers down when you should be separating kids, and stopping the fight...no time for writing.....IMHO

No, you're being smart. Very little good can come of less than a handful of people attempting to separate a mass of this size.

[johnnyg08]

yep, I'm not losing a tooth or blowing out my knee trying to stop a bunch of kids from fighting...in my mind, that's not part of the job.

[Bishopcolle]

Originally Posted by Matt

No, you're being smart. Very little good can come of less than a handful of people attempting to separate a mass of this size.

Disagree....As a parent, if you do nothing other than save my kid some serious injury (not an ***-kicking, but serious), I would be grateful....If some video camera catches you writing, instead of separating--at least, trying to separate--than I think you have problems....And as I said, you're not going to be effective writing down numbers in this brawl...just busy work...

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

Disagree....As a parent, if you do nothing other than save my kid some serious injury (not an ***-kicking, but serious), I would be grateful....If some video camera catches you writing, instead of separating--at least, trying to separate--than I think you have problems....And as I said, you're not going to be effective writing down numbers in this brawl...just busy work...

You're not going to be effective attempting to break up a brawl, unless you use adequate force to incapacitate the participants. You also run the risk of being attacked yourself.

What's a video camera have to do with this, anyway? Are you implying the risk of a lawsuit? It's not going to be successful.

[jwwashburn]

No way on earth do I put my hands on a kid. Never, ever, ever.

I could get injured, the kid could get injured. No way...I would never even consider it.

Joe in Missouri

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

I agree with DG, and disagree with Johnnyg08....no way you're gonna get the numbers of the participants in this brawl...better look at the bench and see who is left....Then forfeit for a lack of legal playing personnel....You are much better than me to get the numbers down in this situation.

I also think you've got your priorities mixed up, if you're trying to write numbers down when you should be separating kids, and stopping the fight...no time for writing.....IMHO

And you would not be handling it the way my state wants it done, mixed up priorities or not. We are told to stay out of the fray, and take down numbers, even if it's the numbers of players who remained where they belong.
Speaking just for myself, I'm not getting in the middle of a fight between HS kids. Kids these days are far too big and strong for me to want one to turn on me, even accidentally. I don't make my living umpiring baseball, and I won't sacrifice my family's standard of living by being injured doing something I shouldn't. Plus, as Mr. Washburn said before me, there's no way I'm putting my hands on someone else's son.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

Disagree....As a parent,

There's the problem. You're thinking like a parent, whereas we understand how to perform like an umpire.

Nothing good can come from physically getting involved. Our job is, to the best of our ability, record the violators.

[JR12]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

Disagree....As a parent, if you do nothing other than save my kid some serious injury (not an ***-kicking, but serious), I would be grateful....If some video camera catches you writing, instead of separating--at least, trying to separate--than I think you have problems....And as I said, you're not going to be effective writing down numbers in this brawl...just busy work...

No way. We are taught not to touch any player. Write down numbers and be a good witness. Eject all those who participate or advance toward the melee. Coaches are allowed to advance to restore order. Make sure Police are notified!