Why we umpires love baseball coaches--Part I.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I had a boys' H.S. jr. varsity baseball game last night (NFHS Rules). My partner is a good umpire and is the type you would go to "war" with if you get my drift and the bottom of the second (Part I)and the tops of the third and fourth innings (Parts II and III, respectively) were those types if innings. I am the PU and my partner is the BU, obviously.

Part I: One out, R1 on first. F1 delivers his first pitch (R1 breaks for second with the pitch) to B2 (who is a lefty), which is high and outside, but B2 swings, makes contact with the ball, and the ball goes directly back to F2 who catches it cleanly in his glove. While I am giving the foul tip signal and signaling a strike (I use the point signal, ) F2 fires the ball toward second base but the throw sails wide right of the base, behind R1 going toward second, and is caught by F4.

F2's throw causes my partner to turn so that his back is to the third base line. While F2's throw is headed toward F4, the third base coach (the Head Coach for the Home team) yells "foul ball"; R1 immediately stops about three feet short of second base and turns around and starts to walk back toward first base. My partner (Who told me during our soon to be conference in the middle of the infield, that he was sure of two things: 1) That I had signaled a foul tip and strike before he turned to watch for a possible tag, And, 2) he was suprised to hear me call out "foul ball", and that is why he pointed to First base and told R1 to return to first base.) pointed to first base and told R1 to return to first base, he then turned back to me at which point I called out in a voice loud enough for the infielders to hear: the ball is still live. This caused F4 to immediately tag R1 who was still walking back to first base, who was promptly called out by my partner.

Of course HC-Home was not happy because my partner had told R1 to return to first base. Which prompted the following conversation:

HC-Home: Your partner told my runner to go back to first base.

Me: The ball remains live on a foul tip.

HC-Home: But you made the foul ball signal with your hands your partner told my runner to go back to first base.

Me: I gave the foul tip signal after which I gave the strike signal; I never called out "foul ball".

HC-Home: But your partner told my runner to go back to first base after he had already reached second base.

Me: My partner had his back to us in order to watch for a possible tag when you yelled "foul ball". You yelling "foul ball" does not cause the ball to become dead. You yelling "foul ball" put your player in jeapordy, not anything my partner or I did or did not do. Your player is out and we are going to play baseball.

MTD, Sr.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

You yelling "foul ball" put your player in jeapordy, not anything my partner or I did or did not do.
MTD, Sr.

How about pointing to 1st and telling the runner to return? You don't think that put him in jeopardy?

If I ever heard a call of "foul ball," I would be pretty sure it didn't come from an umpire.

Sorry, there is no way the kid should be called out.

[mbyron]

Why do you guys talk so much?

BU should keep his mouth shut and make his calls. He has no business telling runners where to go, especially when he saw his partner call a foul tip.

PU should keep his mouth shut and make his calls. He has no business telling the players when the ball is live.

If there's any confusion after the play, call time and discuss it. If the coach sends his runner back and he's tagged out, that's entirely on the coach.

Given what actually happened: FED wants umpires to fix any situations that arise because an umpire's mistake put a runner in jeopardy. In this case, that would mean and rescinding the out and putting R1 on 2B, where he clearly would have been safe without the umpires' (plural) involvement in the play.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Why do you guys talk so much?

BU should keep his mouth shut and make his calls. He has no business telling runners where to go, especially when he saw his partner call a foul tip.

PU should keep his mouth shut and make his calls. He has no business telling the players when the ball is live.

If there's any confusion after the play, call time and discuss it. If the coach sends his runner back and he's tagged out, that's entirely on the coach.

Given what actually happened: FED wants umpires to fix any situations that arise because an umpire's mistake put a runner in jeopardy. In this case, that would mean and rescinding the out and putting R1 on 2B, where he clearly would have been safe without the umpires' (plural) involvement in the play.

Agreed (but less harshly on the umpire). I never tell the runner to return to second on a foul ball, they figure it out. If I see the other umpire call foul ball, I may repeat "foul ball" to save the runner some steps but it's not common for me to say anything.

-Josh

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jdmara

Agreed (but less harshly on the umpire).

I guess I might have sounded harsh. From what I've read on here, MTD is a good umpire, and I was astonished that he participated in these rookie follies.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I had a boys' H.S. jr. varsity baseball game last night (NFHS Rules). My partner is a good umpire and is the type you would go to "war" with if you get my drift and the bottom of the second (Part I)and the tops of the third and fourth innings (Parts II and III, respectively) were those types if innings. I am the PU and my partner is the BU, obviously.

Part I: One out, R1 on first. F1 delivers his first pitch (R1 breaks for second with the pitch) to B2 (who is a lefty), which is high and outside, but B2 swings, makes contact with the ball, and the ball goes directly back to F2 who catches it cleanly in his glove. While I am giving the foul tip signal and signaling a strike (I use the point signal, ) F2 fires the ball toward second base but the throw sails wide right of the base, behind R1 going toward second, and is caught by F4.

F2's throw causes my partner to turn so that his back is to the third base line. While F2's throw is headed toward F4, the third base coach (the Head Coach for the Home team) yells "foul ball"; R1 immediately stops about three feet short of second base and turns around and starts to walk back toward first base. My partner (Who told me during our soon to be conference in the middle of the infield, that he was sure of two things: 1) That I had signaled a foul tip and strike before he turned to watch for a possible tag, And, 2) he was suprised to hear me call out "foul ball", and that is why he pointed to First base and told R1 to return to first base.) pointed to first base and told R1 to return to first base, he then turned back to me at which point I called out in a voice loud enough for the infielders to hear: the ball is still live. This caused F4 to immediately tag R1 who was still walking back to first base, who was promptly called out by my partner.

Of course HC-Home was not happy because my partner had told R1 to return to first base. Which prompted the following conversation:

HC-Home: Your partner told my runner to go back to first base.

Me: The ball remains live on a foul tip.

HC-Home: But you made the foul ball signal with your hands your partner told my runner to go back to first base.

Me: I gave the foul tip signal after which I gave the strike signal; I never called out "foul ball".

HC-Home: But your partner told my runner to go back to first base after he had already reached second base.

Me: My partner had his back to us in order to watch for a possible tag when you yelled "foul ball". You yelling "foul ball" does not cause the ball to become dead. You yelling "foul ball" put your player in jeapordy, not anything my partner or I did or did not do. Your player is out and we are going to play baseball.

MTD, Sr.

Coaches are wonderful aren't they. But FED does give us the tools (by rule book) to fix any situation in which an umpire puts the runner in jeopardy so in this situation you can fix the problem.

Now if the coaches yells it and the player goes back, that's entirely on the coach and I'm not going to bail him out.

Thanks
David

[johnnyg08]

Unfortunately the umps screwed up on this one...ideally, if BU was not sure...the BU should've either done nothing or asked PU if he had foul ball or foul tip...then sent the runner back...if it was a foul ball, PU would've noticed that R1 was standing on 2B and sent him back...BU probably heard the 3rd base coach yell foul ball, and w/o really thinking about it, in good faith told the runner to go back to 1B....that being said, in my mind, this is an easy, easy, easy fix. Umps call time...put R1 back on 2B. That's "getting the play right" which is why we're there to umpire. Then, post game on it w/o busting anybody's balls since we can all make mistakes and that one was an easy one to fix. Umpires should read other umpires...not what the coaches are telling their players...that being said, I'm not perfect either.

[dash_riprock]

BU was certain it was a foul tip, and he saw F2 release the throw. There was no reason to react to the "foul ball" call. The ball is live. Stay with the ball.

[johnnyg08]

He must not have been too sure being that he pointed a runner back to 1B...either that or BU doesn't know the rule...if he said he heard one thing and then did another, he couldn't have been too sure...that's my point...if he went through the process stated in the OP, and he's decided that he's going to get involved, keep the runner on the base, ask PU to confirm his call...on a foul ball, you can always return the runner because it was an uncaught foul ball. I'm not busting anybody's chops here...I'll be the first to admit that my mind has made a call and my body signaled something else...but the umps screwed up here (well, BU screwed up)...this is also an easy one to fix...you can't call the runner out here when BU tells the runner foul ball...easy fix...keep R2 at 2B

That being said, I agree with your post except for the "BU was certain part"

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

He must not have been too sure being that he pointed a runner back to 1B...either that or BU doesn't know the rule...if he said he heard one thing and then did another, he couldn't have been too sure...that's my point...if he went through the process stated in the OP, and he's decided that he's going to get involved, keep the runner on the base, ask PU to confirm his call...on a foul ball, you can always return the runner because it was an uncaught foul ball. I'm not busting anybody's chops here...I'll be the first to admit that my mind has made a call and my body signaled something else...but the umps screwed up here (well, BU screwed up)...this is also an easy one to fix...you can't call the runner out here when BU tells the runner foul ball...easy fix...keep R2 at 2B

That being said, I agree with your post except for the "BU was certain part"

The OP stated that BU was sure of the foul tip and strike call before he turned to the play at 2nd base..

[johnnyg08]

Correct...but if BU was "sure" why did he send the runner back to 1B? He either didn't know for sure as he stated or he doesn't know the rule.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I had a boys' H.S. jr. varsity baseball game last night (NFHS Rules).

(2) he was suprised to hear me call out "foul ball", and that is why he pointed to First base and told R1 to return to first base.)

This is NFHS rules therefore, check out case play 10.2.3E which is similar to your OP.

Ruling: The umpire TELLING the runner to go back to first base placed that team at a disadvantage and the umpire needs to fix.

In this situation the runner should have been allowed to stay at first base.

Do not know if your state has protest procedures (here in NY we do) but the coach should have protested the game based upon a misapplication of rule 10-2-3L, UNLESS the score was out of hand where it would have made no difference.

Pete Booth

[johnnyg08]

So are you saying that not only does the batter have a strike, but offense loses a stolen base on the foul tip? Would it be wrong to keep R1 at 2B since he had the base stolen?

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

So are you saying that not only does the batter have a strike, but offense loses a stolen base on the foul tip? Would it be wrong to keep R1 at 2B since he had the base stolen?

I believe it would be up to the umpires judgment whether the running would have made it safely to 2b or not if the umpire did not make a mistake. HOWEVER, since the offense (ie HC @ 3b) caused the confusion I would consider that as well.

-Josh

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jdmara

I believe it would be up to the umpires judgment whether the running would have made it safely to 2b or not if the umpire did not make a mistake. HOWEVER, since the offense (ie HC @ 3b) caused the confusion I would consider that as well.

-Josh

In general this is correct. If we're still talking about the OP, 2 points are worth noting in deciding how to fix the matter:

1. R1 had the base stolen, and the throw was behind him to F4.
2. The BASE UMPIRE, having heard the coach, told him to return to 1B because it was a foul ball. (And he did that having seen his partner signal a foul tip and a strike -- blows my mind.)

To fix #2, take into account #1 and put R1 on 2B. The pitch was a strike. Play ball.