Help me with this situation!

[johnnyg08]

only if it would've been the third out though right?

[PeteBooth]

That is correct EXCEPT if the player who should have been out scored and anything that scored after out number 2.

Example:

leadoff batter: Bunts the ball Foul with 2 strikes - Nothing happens and then B1 singles.

He comes around later to score. His run WOULD NOT COUNT because by RULE he should have been out.

Any runs that score after him ok.

Now batter number 6 is up and grounds out for what should have been out number 2 but is registered as out number 1. Any runs scored after him OK

Now the team bats around and the lead-off hitter comes up again and grounds out for what should have been the end of the inning, however, out number 2 is only registered.

Now any run scored after that is NULL and VOID.

I realize we could also have base running infractions and I will not even venture into that area.

Yes it would be combersome but according to what happened in the Indians / O's game IMO MLB opened up the floodgates to these types of situations.

FWIW these types of things should be treated as appeals meaning if the opposing coach did not notice it as with a base-running mistake, they have until the next pitch, IBB or play to make it KNOWN. After that - TOO BAD, however, that's not what MLB decided.

The Indians lodged a protest and lost.

Pete Booth

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

You do not need rule support. Remember the Indians / O's game a few years back?

A run was put back on the board some 3 innings later.

In the OP you fix the problem. Everything that happened after B1 bunted a ball foul with 2 strikes and 2 outs is null and void NO MATTER when discovered as EVIDENCED by MLB ruling concerning the Inidans / O's game. The link is posted below in case you are interested

MLB denies protest by Indians - MLB - ESPN

Pete Booth

Pete,

I would argue that these are the same. A scoring error may be fixed at any time, even post-game in certain cases. Scoring errors typically do not directly impact the immediate action on the field but rather add/remove runs.

This is a playing rule mistake where there is a specific time limit set for protest / fix. In this case the manager had his chance & missed it - let a pitch go by.

In OBR we have to eat this and play on on. If a protest is filed so be it, let the league decide. In FED we CAN fix this due to the wider latitude given umpires for this sort of situation.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by socalblue1

Pete,

This is a playing rule mistake where there is a specific time limit set for protest / fix. In this case the manager had his chance & missed it - let a pitch go by.

Please read the article

The run, which scored on a sacrifice fly in the third inning before the Indians could turn a double play, was later added in the sixth inning -- a ruling that left players, coaches, managers and everyone at Jacobs Field scratching their heads.

MLB chief operating officer Bob DuPuy decided Wednesday that because the umpires' mistake did not involve a judgment call, and because there is nothing in the Official Baseball Rules to address when umpires can make a correction, the umps can act at their own discretion.

The run was later added because a RULE was misappled. In fact if memory serves the PU went into the umpire dressing room to LOOK UP the rule. This involved a timing play where R3 scored BEFORE the completion of the double play.

We are not talking about your run of the mill SCOREKEEPING error here.

Your statement This is a playing rule mistake where there is a specific time limit set for protest / fix. is incorrect and is the REASON the Indians protested. They LOST the Protest.

According to MLB the umps can act at their own discretion concerning RULE discrepancies.

There are SCOREKEEPING ERRORS and then there are Scoring ERRORS because of an umpire's mistake which we are talking about in this OP.

Pete Booth

[bniu]

Originally Posted by FATUMP

Runners on 1st and 3rd, 2 outs, 2 strikes on the batter.
Batter bunts the ball foul, plate and base umpires, defensive team all brain fart and do nothing about it. The next pitch is lined for a single. This is when the HC comes out and says that the kid bunted foul on the the last pitch, he should be out. The umpires got together and called the kid out.
is there rule support for this? The only thing I can find is in rule 10.

essentially, now your inning is 4 outs long. Just go back and fix it, use common sense and do what's fair. If it is several innings later that it's noticed, well, i dunno if you can do anything about it then...

I think once with two outs and 2 strikes, the batted ball hit the batter and I didn't get a good look if the batter was still in the box so I ruled batter was still in the box and so the batter got to bat again with 2 strikes. Defensive coach was barking down my back about what he thought was a really bad judgement call. Didn't matter in the end as I rung up the hitter on the next pitch. (which was a gopher pitch, why in the world did the batter not swing at it, i dunno). btw, a gopher pitch is a really juicy pitch that is easily hittable for a home run and should be swung at everytime a batter sees one...

[SAump]

When an umpire errs, both teams are required to know the situation.
Here a bunt foul for strike three results in an out. Three outs end an innning.
Defense should recognize the third out and clear the field. No.
Defense provides the same batter with a do-over pitch.
Batter singles and a run is scored.
Coach then decides to investigate the matter.
If we overlook the bunt foul, clearly we play on and the run counts.
But if we recognize the third out and clear the field, does the run still count?

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I'm not sure what FED rule you meant to cite, but 1-2-3 concerns the location and size of the on-deck circle. There is no case 1.2.3 (i) or any other case 1.2.3 in the 2009 book.

My boo boo should be 10-2-3 i 1 pg 65

[socalblue1]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;598721]

Please read the article



The run was later added because a RULE was misapplied. In fact if memory serves the PU went into the umpire dressing room to LOOK UP the rule. This involved a timing play where R3 scored BEFORE the completion of the double play.

We are not talking about your run of the mill SCOREKEEPING error here.

Your statement This is a playing rule mistake where there is a specific time limit set for protest / fix. is incorrect and is the REASON the Indians protested. They LOST the Protest.

According to MLB the umps can act at their own discretion concerning RULE discrepancies.

There are SCOREKEEPING ERRORS and then there are Scoring ERRORS because of an umpire's mistake which we are talking about in this OP.

Pete Booth

Pete,

In this case the run was not properly counted due to a mistake on a timing play (IE: a scoring error not properly counting a run legally scored). There are still three outs and no further change could result in the inning by correcting the error.

Compare that to the OP: Potentially the entire inning changes because play was allowed to continue.

Don't get me wrong. In this case I would be in favor of a CSFP solution. Remove the run & ending the inning is really the right result.

My problem is this: Under OBR the rule book has several areas where the next pitch or play specifically precludes an appeal or protest. Sure we can fall back to 9.01(C) but IMO it's a hard sell.

[DG]

I was thinking of the same MLB play Pete mentions when thinking about when a correction could be made. But that play was score a run or not, no further action in the half inning depended on that correction. In the Op at hand it is easy to fix with minimal impact but what if the offensive team would go on to score 7-8 runs after the 3rd out should have been registered? Would we wipe out all the runs and call the inning over? That would fix the error but be unpopular with one of the teams. Would we really remember the count when the batter bunted foul 9-10 batters ago. I certainly would not.

Absent a specific rule otherwise I tend to think this is similar to BOO situation if I have to apply a 9.01C type ruling.

I also find it hard to believe that PU, BU and defensive coach let this pass when it happened. This brings up another question that was discussed on another post. If you were BU and you knew the batter bunted foul on 2nd strike and PU did not call him out are you going to let him know what you think has happened before the next pitch. Some would consider this throwing him under the bus.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by socalblue1

Socalblue I am not trying to beat a "dead horse" but IMO the following says it all

According to MLB the umps can act at their own discretion concerning RULE discrepancies.

the way I interpret this is that the provisions that are outlined in the OBR rule book governing the time the defense has to protest or appeal are NOT valid concerning a RULE Descrepancy meaning the umpires can FIX however they seem fit and there is no TIME TABLE on when they can do this.

Now I agree with you for amateur baseball in that if it's an "easy fix' "fix it" but if 'some time' has gone by TOO BAD as the manager needed to do 'something" when it happened.

My point was that IMO MLB opened up a "can of worms' when they allowed the umpires to put up a run 3 innings later. I thought as you did that the rule missapplication needed to be discovered in the same manner as an appeal situation.

My gut tells me there would have been a different outcome had that run that the umpires put back on the board was the winning run. In other words let's say the indians / O's were tied after 9 complete innings but instead of going to extras, the umpires discovered their 3rd inning mistake in the 9th inning and declared the game over. Then it would have been "very interesting" to see what MLB would have done in that situation.

Pete Booth

[RogersUmp]

Yes, Peter, very interesting going into the 9th up one or behind one instead of tied. This affects the manager's decisions on RP and PH. That makes the scoring goof not just a scorebook issue but a ripple affecting strategy. As a manager or coach I want to know the real score during the entire game not just during 6 innings of a 9 inning game.