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Old Wed Apr 13, 2005, 01:29am
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Men's rec tonight and need some thoughts on how we handled the situation if correctly. Player A1 on breakaway drives to the hole and is intentionally fouled by B1 from behind and the ball goes in. Player A1 collects himself up off the floor and takes exception to the foul and shoves B1 in the chest. I come in with a technical foul on A1. The T is player A1's fifth foul so before we get started shooting free throws, etc. and after a discussion with my partner we summon a substitute for A1 since he's been disqualified. Is that correct in both high school and college that we'd get A1 outta the game first and foremost? So, the sub (A6) comes in and shoots the two free throws for the intentional foul. We then have any member of team B attempt the two free throws for the technical foul and play is resumed at the division line with a team B throw in.
Now in college after substitute A6 has been summoned into the game after A1's disqualification wouldn't we shoot the two free throws for the technical foul first and then come back down with A6 shooting two free throws for the intentional foul with the lane cleared and ball given to team B for throw in nearest spot of the foul?
Also during this entire dead ball situation since we have a team A disqualification when can team B substitute, in both high school and college?
Thanks for your help.......
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Old Wed Apr 13, 2005, 03:04am
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First of all, after the hard intentional foul, you should have already been in there. There's no need to go report anything until you're certain that it's safe to leave the players. To me that's not until the fouled player has gotten up and it's obvious that nothing further is going to take place.

For HS: You shoot in the order the fouls occurred. So yes, remove A1 for his fifth foul, his substitute shoots two shots with the lane cleared. Then any member of B shoots the T shots with the lane cleared. Then B's throw-in at half court. Substitutes may legally enter with A6 or after any foul shot.

For NCAA: You'll have to wait for one of the NCAA rules gurus
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Old Wed Apr 13, 2005, 04:53am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ebayref
Now in college after substitute A6 has been summoned into the game after A1's disqualification wouldn't we shoot the two free throws for the technical foul first and then come back down with A6 shooting two free throws for the intentional foul with the lane cleared and ball given to team B for throw in nearest spot of the foul?
That is correct for NCAA women because the foul charged to A1 would be a direct technical foul (non-flagrant contact). In an NCAA men's game A1 would be charged with an intentional technical foul (contact with an opponent in a non-flagrant manner during a dead ball). The penalty for this is 2 FTs and possession of the ball at the division line. Therefore, it doesn't really matter what order you shoot the FTs in, but using the high school order makes more sense to me.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ebayref
Also during this entire dead ball situation since we have a team A disqualification when can team B substitute, in both high school and college?
Thanks for your help.......
Due to the DQ, players can substitute prior to any of the FTs in high school. (NFHS 3-3-1c) For college it again depends upon whether this is a mens or womens game.

Women have the same rule as NFHS and all players who have legally reported may enter when a player is required to be replaced (DQ, injury, blood, etc.).

For men only the substitute for the player who must be replaced is allowed to enter prior to the first FT for a multiple throw for a personal foul. Since the rule specifies personal foul, substitutions are allowed prior to the the first throw of the 2FTs for the technical foul.

3-4-10 and 3-4-11 and AR 8 on page 60 spell this out.



[Edited by Nevadaref on Apr 13th, 2005 at 05:55 AM]
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Old Wed Apr 13, 2005, 06:57am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:
Originally posted by Ebayref
Now in college after substitute A6 has been summoned into the game after A1's disqualification wouldn't we shoot the two free throws for the technical foul first and then come back down with A6 shooting two free throws for the intentional foul with the lane cleared and ball given to team B for throw in nearest spot of the foul?
That is correct for NCAA women because the foul charged to A1 would be a direct technical foul (non-flagrant contact).
In NCAAW, I believe that after the two FTs for the T and A6's two FTs, the ball would be awarded to team A (not team B) at the designated spot nearest the foul for the throw-in.
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Old Wed Apr 13, 2005, 07:48am
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Lotto, I don't know all of the women's rules but are you saying that dead ball contact isn't an intentional technical foul on the women's side? After the whistle blows for the foul the ball is dead (of course). For the men's game Nevada was on point and pretty sharp. Interestingly, this same thing can happen between the time that the ball goes through the net and before someone picks it up for a throw in (intentional technical).
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Old Wed Apr 13, 2005, 08:26am
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Quote:
Originally posted by tomegun
Lotto, I don't know all of the women's rules but are you saying that dead ball contact isn't an intentional technical foul on the women's side?
There is no IT in NCAAW.
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Old Wed Apr 13, 2005, 08:28am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ebayref
Men's rec tonight and need some thoughts on how we handled the situation if correctly. Player A1 on breakaway drives to the hole and is intentionally fouled by B1 from behind and the ball goes in. Player A1 collects himself up off the floor and takes exception to the foul and shoves B1 in the chest. I come in with a technical foul on A1. The T is player A1's fifth foul so before we get started shooting free throws, etc. and after a discussion with my partner we summon a substitute for A1 since he's been disqualified. Is that correct in both high school and college that we'd get A1 outta the game first and foremost? So, the sub (A6) comes in and shoots the two free throws for the intentional foul. We then have any member of team B attempt the two free throws for the technical foul and play is resumed at the division line with a team B throw in.
Now in college after substitute A6 has been summoned into the game after A1's disqualification wouldn't we shoot the two free throws for the technical foul first and then come back down with A6 shooting two free throws for the intentional foul with the lane cleared and ball given to team B for throw in nearest spot of the foul?
Also during this entire dead ball situation since we have a team A disqualification when can team B substitute, in both high school and college?
Thanks for your help.......
Here's some more help -> don't work men's rec leagues!
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Old Wed Apr 13, 2005, 09:04am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ebayref
Men's rec tonight and need some thoughts on how we handled the situation if correctly. Player A1 on breakaway drives to the hole and is intentionally fouled by B1 from behind and the ball goes in. Player A1 collects himself up off the floor and takes exception to the foul and shoves B1 in the chest. I come in with a technical foul on A1. The T is player A1's fifth foul so before we get started shooting free throws, etc. and after a discussion with my partner we summon a substitute for A1 since he's been disqualified. Is that correct in both high school and college that we'd get A1 outta the game first and foremost? So, the sub (A6) comes in and shoots the two free throws for the intentional foul. We then have any member of team B attempt the two free throws for the technical foul and play is resumed at the division line with a team B throw in.
Now in college after substitute A6 has been summoned into the game after A1's disqualification wouldn't we shoot the two free throws for the technical foul first and then come back down with A6 shooting two free throws for the intentional foul with the lane cleared and ball given to team B for throw in nearest spot of the foul?
Also during this entire dead ball situation since we have a team A disqualification when can team B substitute, in both high school and college?
Thanks for your help.......
Ebayref -- Welcome to the board! This is an amazingly interesting and advanced question compared to what folks usually post in their debut. How about giving us a small amount of introduction to yourself? We'd like to get to know you!
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Old Wed Apr 13, 2005, 10:05am
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Nice debut post. I read the other responses, but didn't you say that the ball went in on the intentional foul? So the sub for A1 should shoot one shot with the lane cleared.
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Old Wed Apr 13, 2005, 10:14am
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No drothamel, since it was an Intentional foul, it will still be two shots - all Intentional fouls are two shots (or three possibly) whether it goes in or not...and as someone else already pointed out, Team A would have the throw-in following the shots since Intentional fouls are two shots and possession...
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Old Wed Apr 13, 2005, 10:18am
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Thanks to everyone for their input. To answer a few questions:
1. Yes, the ball did go in on the shot which was called an intentional foul by my partner. Regardless of whether the ball goes in or not on a two-pt. try we shoot two free throws in NFHS. Is that the same of college?
2. ChrisSportsFan - great statement and one in which I contemplate often....."don't work men's rec leagues!" For me it helps me stay connected during the off season and once November rolls around I'm already in a groove since we have year round rec. leagues here in SoCal.
3. Quick bio: Varsity official for a couple years now and would like to eventually move to a higher level. I've been enjoying this forum for a couple of months and all of the banter back and forth. Mr. Jurassic Ref seems to be quite the personality and I enjoy most of his posts. I've learned quite a bit from all of you so keep up the good work! And, lastly, doing men's rec. is a great way to brush up on your dead ball officiating.....case in point last night!
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Old Wed Apr 13, 2005, 10:22am
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockyroad
No drothamel, since it was an Intentional foul, it will still be two shots - all Intentional fouls are two shots (or three possibly) whether it goes in or not...and as someone else already pointed out, Team A would have the throw-in following the shots since Intentional fouls are two shots and possession...
Except that A1 committed a T before the intentional was penalized, so B shoots after A, and B gets the ball for a throw-in. Tough beans for Team A.
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Old Wed Apr 13, 2005, 10:26am
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thanks for the correction all, my bad. Ebay is right, men's rec is a great way to brush up on dead ball officiating, and doing AAU is a great way to brush up on how to handle coaches.
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Old Wed Apr 13, 2005, 10:47am
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by tomegun
Lotto, I don't know all of the women's rules but are you saying that dead ball contact isn't an intentional technical foul on the women's side?
There is no IT in NCAAW.
You beat me to that reply!

Incidentally, in both NCAAM and NCAAW, if you view A1's push as an attempt to instigate a fight, you could rule it a flagrant T for fighting. In this case A1 is ejected, FTs are shot, and B gets the ball for a throw-in at the division line.
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Old Wed Apr 13, 2005, 10:56am
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Ebayref - welcome to the forum, and good question. The first thing you did right was get together with your partner and discuss what happened, and what you're going to do next. In the heat of battle, sometimes things get overlooked, and this discussion time is a good place to calm down and get things right. As far as NFHS, A1 does need to be replaced first, before anything else happens. Then, fouls are penalized in the order they occured, so the intentional foul gets shot first (2 shots), with A6 shooting with the lane cleared. Next, any member of B shoots the T, with the ball then taken out at the division line by B. In NCAAW, the T is penalized first, then you go to Point of Interuption. First, sub in for disqualified A1, B shoots the T, then A6 shoots the intentional, and A gets the ball out at the spot closest to the foul.

Oh, and when did we start getting formal, like "Mr. Jurrasic Referee"? Is he really that old?
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