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Old Mon Apr 27, 2009, 10:23am
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Whoa Whoa - Dead Ball or Not?

New one for me. I am BU in C. R2 trying to score on hit to LC. Throw to the plate, R2 slides, catcher goes down to his knees in front of the plate to block the ball on the one bounce throw from Left. Catcher bobbles the ball as he is leaning towards sliding R2. Catcher ends up laying on R2 as R2 slides and stops short of the plate. R2 is 1 foot (12") short of the plate. Ball is laying on the ground. As R2 scrambles to get to the plate, the PU yells...WHOA WHOA and both players stop their movements. Def. Coach "yells tag him tag him." Catcher picks up the ball and tags R2 and PU calls him out. Offensive coach protests that PU stopped play by yelling Whoa Whoa therefore you can not call R2 out due to Dead Ball. PU comes to talk to me and says I thought the two players were going to start pushing each other so my natural reaction was to yell Whoa Whoa and I know I should not have done that. NOw what Do I do? PU ended up letting the play stand. R2 out on the tag. Off. Coach disagreed but did not make a big stink about it. (Later learned he was a HS and Small College Ump.) We played on. Reviewed Rules and Case plays later that would help in making the right call on this play but came up empty. Any Suggestions on what may be the right call on this or did PU do right? Thanks!
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Old Mon Apr 27, 2009, 10:26am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaco54 View Post
Any Suggestions on what may be the right call on this or did PU do right? Thanks!
Obstruction on F2.
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Old Mon Apr 27, 2009, 10:41am
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I had a play as PU similar to this over the weekend, although I didn't yell "Whoa whoa" during the play. I can't remember if it was R1 and R2 or if the bases were loaded, but two runners were trying to score. As the first runner is trying to score, the catcher goes up the line without the ball and they collide, so I have obstruction on F2. The ball gets there shortly after the collision and ends up going to the backstop, so the second runner comes in and scores as well.

The offensive coach wanted me to say something to the catcher. I told him I called obstruction and that I couldn't really do anything else since it wasn't malicious. Meanwhile, the defensive team's fans are yapping that the runner lowered his shoulder and ran their catcher over.
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Old Mon Apr 27, 2009, 10:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Obstruction on F2.
Absolutely. And tell PU to keep his mouth shut, since in a FED game OBS is a delayed dead ball. (In OBR on this play, the ball's dead immediately.)
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Old Mon Apr 27, 2009, 10:45am
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaco54 View Post
: Catcher ends up laying on R2 as R2 slides and stops short of the plate. R2 is 1 foot (12") short of the plate. Ball is laying on the ground.
Did F2 "get up quickly" and go for the ball or did F2 simply STAY on top of R2 preventing him from touching the plate?

many time players get 'tangled" and as long as the fielder is making a legitimate attempt ot 'get off the runner" then play on.

if not then as Bob said we have OBS.


Quote:
As R2 scrambles to get to the plate, the PU yells...WHOA WHOA and both players stop their movements. Def. Coach "yells tag him tag him." Catcher picks up the ball and tags R2 and PU calls him out. Offensive coach protests that PU stopped play by yelling Whoa Whoa therefore you can not call R2 out due to Dead Ball.
Question?

When the PU said WHOA WHOA did he have BOTH hands raised in the air indicating TIME?

There are certian actions ie; PU putting up hand to F1 which means we have Time out.

However, as long as the PU did not say TIME or indicate with hands raised in AIR that we indeed had time out, then the players should NOT have stopped their movements.

The players SHOULD be taught NOT to stop until they hear FOUL or TIME. So IMO, that's the players fault for stopping.

Unless the PU ruled OBS, then play stands as called.

Pete Booth
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Old Mon Apr 27, 2009, 10:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Obstruction on F2.
Good point. I thought about that but, F2 positioned himself in front of the plate giving full access to R2, as F2 went to catch the ball, F2 began his slide, when ball hit F2's glove he leaned towards the base path and landed across R2's legs. So, if he did not have the ball secured then it would be obstruction. But, if he had secured the ball and the ball came out at point of contact with R2 and PU yelled WHOA WHO......then...
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Old Mon Apr 27, 2009, 10:50am
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I think the umpire has to judge whether he has effected the play by saying "whoa whoa". If he has, they he must determine what would have happened and award bases or outs appropriately. Either way, the umpire is going to be getting a lashing.

-Josh
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Old Mon Apr 27, 2009, 10:51am
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Originally Posted by JPaco54 View Post
Good point. I thought about that but, F2 positioned himself in front of the plate giving full access to R2, as F2 went to catch the ball, F2 began his slide, when ball hit F2's glove he leaned towards the base path and landed across R2's legs. So, if he did not have the ball secured then it would be obstruction. But, if he had secured the ball and the ball came out at point of contact with R2 and PU yelled WHOA WHO......then...
Still obstruction. F2 cannot impede the runner without possession of the ball.

And the PU is still an idiot.
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Old Mon Apr 27, 2009, 11:23am
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmara View Post
I think the umpire has to judge whether he has effected the play by saying "whoa whoa". If he has, they he must determine what would have happened and award bases or outs appropriately. Either way, the umpire is going to be getting a lashing.

-Josh
Although the PU did not demonstrate proper mechanics as long as he did not say TIME or indicate by any motion ie; raising hands in air, putting up the stop sign" etc. then the play stands.

WHOA WHOA means NOTHING and the players should know that. If they did not hear TIME or FOUL then keep playing.

I agree with the last part of your response Either way, the umpire is going to be getting a lashing.

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Old Mon Apr 27, 2009, 01:04pm
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I had a very similar call at a JV game. Here is how it unfolded:

R2 trying to score on hit to RF. Throw to the plate, R2 slides, catcher goes down to his knees in front of the plate to block the ball on the one bounce throw from Right. Catcher bobbles the ball as he is leaning towards sliding R2. Catcher ends up laying on R2 as R2 slides and stops short of the plate. R2 is 1 foot (12") short of the plate. Ball is laying on the ground near the backstop. As R2 scrambles to get up, the catcher has already risen and is standing on the plate, and hovering over R2. As R2 gets to one knee and trys to reach the plate with the other foot, the catcher, using both arms fully extended, shoves R2 to the ground onto his back. R2 still reaches the plate before the pitcher can get the ball and tag him. I immediatly give the safe sign, then point to the Catcher and give him the Heave-O.

Neither the Catcher, his teammates, or the fans (100+) got ugly. Guess everyone knew what was going to happen. This was a big rivalry game as the 2 schools are less than 1 mile apart. The offending school is a private school, the other is a public school. Several batters were HBP from both teams. Knowing this was a rivlry, attitude would probably explode.

After Catcher was ejected, his coach came and said, "Hey Blue, in basketball the player gets a technical. In soccer it is a yellow card. Can't my catcher get a warning. He is going to miss the next 2 games if he is ejected."

I told the coach that we are playing baseball, not basketball or soccer. In baseball, MC is not a warning, it is an automatic ejection.
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