Appeal on SF in last of 9th

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jdmara

How about this situation:

R1 and B3 up to bat with a 3-2 count and 1 out. R1 attempting to steal on the pitch. On a high pitch (ball), B3 check swings and F2 comes out of his crouch position (to throw out R2) which partial blocks the PU view of the swing. F2 instinctively throws it to F4 to putout R2 stealing. The PU did not believe he offered and declares "Ball Four". R1 hears "Ball Four" and slows to a jog. F2's throw beats R1 to the base and was tagged by F4. The BU signals nothing, "Ball four gentlemen".

The defensive coach asks the catcher to appeal the swing, he asks the PU to appeal, and the PU asks the BU. "Did he go?" The BU clearly saw that he went and declares, "Yes, he went!" The batter is declared out by the PU. What do you do with the R1? Lets not get in a pi$$ing match of "this would never happen to me because I would have went to BU right away" or "the BU better agree with my call". Mistakes happen and, as the PU, you thought it wasn't even close (but obviously your view was blocked more than you thought).

(Sorry gentleman, I have to leave for the day. Will continue this later...)

-Josh

Under OBR and NCAA, R1 is out. It's right in the (at least OBR) book.

Under FED, the umpires can decide whether R1 would have been safe or out had the correct call been made right away, and rule accordingly (also, I think, in the book).

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

That's because you're reasonable and sportsmanlike.

I'm hoping that's not a problem.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by umpjong

Nope OBR 4-11c

(c) If the home team scores the winning run in its half of the ninth inning (or its half of an extra inning after a tie), the game ends immediately when the winning run is scored.

I agree this is the rule. NFHS's 4.2.2 says the exact same thing. But what is the intention of that rule? I would contend that this rule means that you don't continue with the remainder of the inning after the winning run scores, ie don't have anymore at bats. On the other hand, I believe you shall let the continuing action progress before you end the game. For instance, you want to make sure that each forced runner (and the B/R) successfully completes their obligations.

Originally Posted by jdmara

How about this situation:

R1 and B3 up to bat with a 3-2 count and 1 out. R1 attempting to steal on the pitch. On a high pitch (ball), B3 check swings and F2 comes out of his crouch position (to throw out R2) which partial blocks the PU view of the swing. F2 instinctively throws it to F4 to putout R2 stealing. The PU did not believe he offered and declares "Ball Four". R1 hears "Ball Four" and slows to a jog. F2's throw beats R1 to the base and was tagged by F4. The BU signals nothing, "Ball four gentlemen".

The defensive coach asks the catcher to appeal the swing, he asks the PU to appeal, and the PU asks the BU. "Did he go?" The BU clearly saw that he went and declares, "Yes, he went!" The batter is declared out by the PU. What do you do with the R1? Lets not get in a pi$$ing match of "this would never happen to me because I would have went to BU right away" or "the BU better agree with my call". Mistakes happen and, as the PU, you thought it wasn't even close (but obviously your view was blocked more than you thought)

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Under OBR and NCAA, R1 is out. It's right in the (at least OBR) book.

Under FED, the umpires can decide whether R1 would have been safe or out had the correct call been made right away, and rule accordingly (also, I think, in the book).

Bob, Agree with OBR (haven't looked into NCAA or FED yet but I believe you). The PBUC says:

1.13 Checked Swings
...Base runners and umpires must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire-on a checked swing appeal from the plate umpire-may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of being put out by the catcher's throw. Also, the catcher and umpire must be alert in the base-stealing situations if a ball call is reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the plate umpire...

To me, it seems like this says that the base runner is responsible for being aware of possible appeals (in this case check swing appeals).

Originally Posted by umpjong

I'm sure someone will have a pro rule interp book, but I would think that since the game was officially over you could not expect the runners to stay on 1st and 2nd waiting to see if the defense would make an appeal. The appeal (and upholding the appeal) would basically reopen the game and the umpires should simply return the runners to the bases they were on at the time of appeal.

Nothing in the rule book would justify making a runner stay on a base when the game is officially over (by rule the game is officially over when home team scores winning run in bottom of ninth) . Again the proper appeal would simply be a way to reopen the game.

I guess my biggest hurdle is when should the umpire declare the game has ended (aka kill the play). Should he do it immediately after the run scores or after playing action ceases? If there is a play at the plate (runner is safe) should the umpire wait to see if F2 will appeal the runner leaving early? I believe I would wait a few seconds and see what the catcher does. If he rolls the ball to the mound or looks to throw the ball to me, I would put my hands in the air (and imply the game is over with). Then if they want to appeal, the game would be reopened.

HOWEVER, if the catcher immediately throws it to third to appeal, why would I kill the play immediately upon the run scoring. Why not let the continuing action play out?

Lets say I kill the play, not anticipating an appeal by the defense. In FED, the defense can appeal while the ball is dead. Call the runner out and place the runners where they should go. In OBR (and NCAA, I believe), the ball needs to be made live for an appeal (correct?). (I'm speaking off of my limited knowledge of NCAA and OBR, excuse my ignorance). So you would have to make the ball live...Pitcher on the pitcher's plate, batter in the box...etc...runners back on the bases. Pitcher would throw the ball to third, runner out.

If you don't kill the play, why wouldn't the runners be responsible to stay on the base until the ball is dead? Maybe I'm just a mean young man

Good discussion gentleman..I always enjoy these discussions that make me think about some practical what-ifs

-Josh