Foul Tip Signal

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Last weekend on the three hour drive across the State of Ohio to officiate in the State Special Olympics Basketball Finals, Daryl Long and I were discussing the "not closely guarded signal" in basketball. I said it was a stupid signal because if I am not visually counting it means that there is no closely guarded situation. My position on the basketball signal lead to a discussion as to why do we need to signal a foul tip.

We came to the conclusion that a foul tip signal is not necessary becasuse when a foul tip occurs, the ball remains live, so why do we need to signal a foul tip, just signal a strike and an out if it is strike three?

Any comments.

MTD, Sr.

[Freddy]

Agree with the honorable Nuch.
Manual says, "Reasons for this gesture include: it informs fans of the foul tip, it alerts runners that the ball is alive, and it gives scorers who are thorough the information they need for the scorebook."
Seems to me that they assume fans and runners would otherwise not know the difference between the result of a foul tip and a foul ball, which is possible. And I'm not sure the typical scorer records "foul tip" instead of "strike."
As suggested by the original question, it seems directly parallel to the basketball scenerio: in basketball, if you're not counting, it's not a closely guarded situation...in baseball, if you don't call it dead, the ball is alive.
I await other responses.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Last weekend on the three hour drive across the State of Ohio to officiate in the State Special Olympics Basketball Finals, Daryl Long and I were discussing the "not closely guarded signal" in basketball. I said it was a stupid signal because if I am not visually counting it means that there is no closely guarded situation. My position on the basketball signal lead to a discussion as to why do we need to signal a foul tip.

We came to the conclusion that a foul tip signal is not necessary becasuse when a foul tip occurs, the ball remains live, so why do we need to signal a foul tip, just signal a strike and an out if it is strike three?

Any comments.

MTD, Sr.

I agree that it's generally not needed. I stopped using it several years ago and only restarted because of "negative feedback".

It is needed it the swing isn't obvious -- I ended a play in a D-3 game last week when a batter may have swung, but was also trying to get out of the way of an inside pitch -- but it didn't matter because the ball hit the bat and went sharply and directly to F2's mitt and was caught. So, here I gave the foul tip signal and then the strike signal.

Finally, it's different from the "not closely guarded" signal -- without it, the coach doesn't know whether you're not watching the play or are watchinbut judging the difference to be greater than 6' (3' in NCAAW). S/he doesn't know whether to discuss your mechanics or your judgment.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree that it's generally not needed. I stopped using it several years ago and only restarted because of "negative feedback".

It is needed it the swing isn't obvious -- I ended a play in a D-3 game last week when a batter may have swung, but was also trying to get out of the way of an inside pitch -- but it didn't matter because the ball hit the bat and went sharply and directly to F2's mitt and was caught. So, here I gave the foul tip signal and then the strike signal.

Finally, it's different from the "not closely guarded" signal -- without it, the coach doesn't know whether you're not watching the play or are watchinbut judging the difference to be greater than 6' (3' in NCAAW). S/he doesn't know whether to discuss your mechanics or your judgment.

Bob:

Your baseball explaination made a lot of sense, and your example is a good one.

But, I have been officiating women's college basketball since 1974 and men's since 1993 and every time a coach asks about a closely guarded situation and why I do not have my arms spread out, I respond with the following statement: "If I am swinging my arm, then I have a closely guarded situation and if I am not swinging my arm, I do not have a closely guarded situation." And the response I get almost 100% of the time is: "Gee, I never thought of it like that." Therefore, if my arm ain't swinging, it means I ain't counting, and if I ain't counting it means that I do not have a closely guarded situation.

MTD, Sr.

[jkumpire]

There are times IMO where a foul tip signal is important.

1. When a runner is stealing and bat contact is made. It tells everyone the steal is legal.
2. It sells the fact that a strike is caught, esp. on 3rd strikes when the ball is close to the ground. When you give the signal and vocalize that F2 gets the ball before it hits the ground, you are selling the strike.
3. You can never assume that a batter or coach knows a foul tip is not a foul ball. The extra signal makes sure everybody in the house knows you have a foul tip strike with a live ball, as opposed to a dead ball foul ball.

So, IMO it is still worth using.

[Durham]

Also useful in letting everyone know that you heard/saw it and it wasn't cather's interference.

[mandotheman]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

There are times IMO where a foul tip signal is important.

1. When a runner is stealing and bat contact is made. It tells everyone the steal is legal.
2. It sells the fact that a strike is caught, esp. on 3rd strikes when the ball is close to the ground. When you give the signal and vocalize that F2 gets the ball before it hits the ground, you are selling the strike.
3. You can never assume that a batter or coach knows a foul tip is not a foul ball. The extra signal makes sure everybody in the house knows you have a foul tip strike with a live ball, as opposed to a dead ball foul ball.

So, IMO it is still worth using.

Thats why you do it..reason #1, I had a game the other night..r1 stealing, batter swings and foul tips and catcher catches the ball, I give the signal and I hear from the stands that its a foul ball. The runner is safe at 2nd, the coaches understand that its a live ball, but some of the fans are a little slower.....

[dash_riprock]

The sound made by a foul tip is often indistinguishable from that made by a ball grazing the batter or his clothing. The mechanic tells everyone: "Yes, I heard it, and the ball hit the bat." Not giving a signal could convey the opposite.

[Tim C]

I only give the signal when it is to my advantage.

Regards,

[UmpJM]

Heck, I do it because I think it's fun and it kinda' looks cool.

JM

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Heck, I do it because I think it's fun and it kinda' looks cool.

JM

Ha!

[scarolinablue]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Heck, I do it because I think it's fun and it kinda' looks cool.

JM

I agree with this...when done properly with good timing and crisp mechanics, it really looks cool.

And, the other night, had one where about the time the offensive dugout started barking for CI due to the "tip" sound, they realized I was in process of signaling the foul tip and stopped in their tracks. Fans didn't get it, though, at least some of them...

[David B]

Originally Posted by Tim C

I only give the signal when it is to my advantage.

Regards,

Good way of looking at it!

I like that

Thnaks
David

[DG]

I give the signal because I was trained to do so, and it is customary.

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by mandotheman

Thats why you do it..reason #1, I had a game the other night..r1 stealing, batter swings and foul tips and catcher catches the ball, I give the signal and I hear from the stands that its a foul ball. The runner is safe at 2nd, the coaches understand that its a live ball, but some of the fans are a little slower.....:cool:

The unfortunate truth is that the foul tip signal isn't going to help those fans anyway.