did the run score ?

[Maz17]

Not only is the batter/runner out for not being retired before reaching first base, This IS NOT a time play!

Also, on a situation like this, if the swing is called: No he didn't go, the base umpire should come up RIGHT AWAY, with out being checked too, if in his opinion, the batter did go!

This is a very simple play, that happens quite a bit, with a very simple answer!

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by Maz17

the base umpire should come up RIGHT AWAY, with out being checked too, if in his opinion, the batter did go!

Excuse me? That's not his call.

PU should make a quick appeal without being asked if there is any question. I've never heard that BU should simply make a call on this without being asked by PU.

I disagree with this assement.

On topic, no, like everyone else has stated

[Matt]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

Excuse me? That's not his call.

PU should make a quick appeal without being asked if there is any question. I've never heard that BU should simply make a call on this without being asked by PU.

If on a potentially appealable swing/no swing call in which the batter may become a runner, BU needs to make and announce his decision without being requested via appeal. This is the voluntary strike mechanic.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

Excuse me? That's not his call.

PU should make a quick appeal without being asked if there is any question. I've never heard that BU should simply make a call on this without being asked by PU.

I disagree with this assement.

On topic, no, like everyone else has stated

Sorry, but Maz and Matt are correct. You come right out with it in such a case. BU does not wait for the PU to appeal. I don't know how long this mechanic has been in force, but it seems like years.

[SAump]

How a question turned into a difference of opinion on an unusual umpire mechanic. I applaud whoever asked the original question.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

Sorry, but Maz and Matt are correct. You come right out with it in such a case. BU does not wait for the PU to appeal. I don't know how long this mechanic has been in force, but it seems like years.

OK -

It seems odd though that it has not been mentioned at any clinic I've attended. Clinics taught by MLB and NCAA umps with a lot of years of experience, a couple of which have taught at Harry's.

Not arguing it, it just seems like someone would have mentioned it.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

OK -

It seems odd though that it has not been mentioned at any clinic I've attended. Clinics taught by MLB and NCAA umps with a lot of years of experience, a couple of which have taught at Harry's.

Not arguing it, it just seems like someone would have mentioned it.

Well, it is a mechanic that is used in both Los Angeles and the SF Valley H.S. units. I am not certain about the entire state association.

All I know is that it is the mechanic for this and similar situations. EXAMPLE: [Three-man crew] Two out, runners at first and second, 3-2 count. Runners go on the pitch, a change-up that dies and hits the ground near the opposite batter's box and skips off the catcher's mitt. The batter takes a half-swing, and the BU instantaneously screams "Yes he did," while doing the hammer twice. The runner thinks he walked, so he trots away, then suddenly bolts for first, as the lead runner flies around third. The catcher rdraws to throw for what will be a close play on the batter/runner, and everyone's screaming at him to watch the guy coming from third. He eats his throw and turns toward third and throws behind the guy and starts a rundown. Both trail runners are hesitating between bases, because there are two outs. A throw skips off of the third baseman's glove and rolls away, and the lead runner gets up and heads for home, and the trail runner is tagged out at second right after the guy crosses the plate, who scores on a time play.

This actually happened and it worked perfectly.

And what in hell is this off-topic-so-it-can't-be-discussed nonsense? Good Lord, how dull would any conversation or debate (or life) be if you have to abide by that curious standard?

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

Sorry, but Maz and Matt are correct. You come right out with it in such a case. BU does not wait for the PU to appeal. I don't know how long this mechanic has been in force, but it seems like years.

It's listed specifically in the 2007 MLBUM. I think it's been a relatively new mechanic up here in MN anyway. It was taught to immediately ask, but this mechanic is better...if he goes, BU should simply signal yes he went. The other side of it is that the batter/runner should be coached to sprint it out either way in this case...much like the infield fly rule where it's stated that the players are responsible for knowing the rule regardless of whether or not IFF is called

[Matt]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

It's listed specifically in the 2007 MLBUM. I think it's been a relatively new mechanic up here in MN anyway. It was taught to immediately ask, but this mechanic is better...if he goes, BU should simply signal yes he went. The other side of it is that the batter/runner should be coached to sprint it out either way in this case...much like the infield fly rule where it's stated that the players are responsible for knowing the rule regardless of whether or not IFF is called

There is only so much an umpire can do when relying on what a player should do. The sooner a call is resolved, the better for everyone.

For the OP--rendering a decision on the unasked appeal is absolutely necessary. I would say the voluntary strike is most crucial with bases loaded and an uncaught potential third strike. If the batter held, then announcing such ensures that the defense knows that the advancing runner must be tagged. If he didn't, then the defense knows that there is a force and the offense knows that the batter is now in jeopardy.

As for it being a relatively new mechanic in MN, I'm the only one I've ever seen use it, and that was in a B-league game back in '05.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

Excuse me? That's not his call.

PU should make a quick appeal without being asked if there is any question. I've never heard that BU should simply make a call on this without being asked by PU.

I disagree with this assement.

On topic, no, like everyone else has stated

By now you know that it *can* be an accepted mechanic.

That said, if the mechanic is not used in your area, I wouldn't spring it on an unsuspecting PU without discussing it in the pre-game.

And, if you're the PU, you can ask for help without being asked by the defense -- it's almost as good as BU just coming up with the call.

Either way, it lets both teams know what is going on and helps (but, as Kevin illustrates doesn't eliminate) avoid the post-call-reversal discussions / third world plays that might happen.

[jkumpire]

With respect,

The voluntary strike mechanic is a good idea. However, the MLBUM mechanics book is not the law for mechanics except in MLB/MiLB. And if the 2007 manual is the first one with it in, then a lot of good umpires are behind the times. I would encourage you good people who have the manual to bring this to the attention of the CCA guys (for example), and see if they will include it in the future.

I could see multiple big time discussions with a BU who uses this on a field today on many levels of baseball.

[Welpe]

Bob nailed it. This needs to be pre-gamed.

While the MLBUM is a useful resource, I wouldn't go as far as to say it is the highest authority for amateur baseball. Your governing body or association is going to be the final authority on this mechanic. [Edit: I see jkumpire made that same point above me, I guess I missed it!]

If this is not a standard mechanic in your area, you can really put your crew in the jackpot if you come up with a swinging strike on an unsuspecting PU.

[cardinalfan]

The next time I have a boring game with one of my buddies behind the plate, I may yell, "Yes he did" or "No, he did not" for no good reason. I think it would spice up the game a little!

Seriously, the only time I've ever used this is when the dugout is trying to get the catcher to appeal, but they can't get his attention. If I agree with the PU that the batter did not swing, I'll yell, "No, he did not" with the safe mechanic just to expediate the process.

I can see where this would be very helpful in certain situations with 2 strikes and runners on base.

[nopachunts]

cardinalfan wrote:
"Seriously, the only time I've ever used this is when the dugout is trying to get the catcher to appeal, but they can't get his attention. If I agree with the PU that the batter did not swing, I'll yell, "No, he did not" with the safe mechanic just to expediate the process."

Don't throw the PU under the bus on this. If the dugout can't get the catcher's attention, that's not the PU or BU's problem. If I am BU, everybody and their sister can ask if the batter went but unless the PU asks, I know nothing.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by Maz17

, the base umpire should come up RIGHT AWAY, with out being checked too,

The base umpire might be calling balls and strikes from the A position if he steamrolls the PU like that. You offer help ONLY IF ASKED by the PU in this situation.