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Fri Sep 06, 2002, 10:17am
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I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I can't remember what the consensus was.
Situation: 2 outs, bases loaded. BR hits a homerun. All runners are basically standing around watching the ball instead of running like they're supposed to. BR rounds 1st and passes R3 standing about 10 feet off the base BEFORE R1 has touched the plate. After the pass, all runners continue and complete their trip around the bases. The question: Do you count R1's run anyway since she was forced home by the BR touching 1st? Or is this strictly a timing play and the run would not score, since the 3rd out was made prior to the touch? SamC 
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Fri Sep 06, 2002, 12:47pm
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Sam,
I believe this is a time play. In you play no run would score. I am aware of a baseball ruling (NAPBL I think) that if bases are loaded with two out, battter receives a base on balls and one of the runners advances beyond his base and is tagged before R3 scores, then the run counts because R3 was entitled to advance to the next base because of the award. This would not apply on a batted ball. Can't think of any softball cases on point off the top of my head. I'm sure if there is one, it will be posted soon. Roger Greene
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Fri Sep 06, 2002, 01:53pm
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ASA Case Book, Play 8.6-53:
R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B, two outs, B4 hits a home run over the left field fence. After the ball is dead on the home run, B4 passes R3, who was holding up thinking the ball might be caught. Ruling: B4 should be called out the instant he passes R3. If any runners had scored prior to the out called on B4, they would count. This does not apply to the super, all men's major and all men's class A divisions. (8-6H; 8-8D; 5-5) P.S. You might be wondering why they inserted "after the ball is dead on the home run," since it doesn't appear to make any difference. I believe that stipulation allows them to exclude super, men's major, and men's class A, for in those divisions, if B4 passes R3 while the ball is live (i.e., still in the air), B4 is out instantly and only runners who crossed home before the out would score. However, as soon as the ball is dead, the runs count and there can be no passing runners, missed bases, etc. Why they specified "left field" fence, I don't know.
__________________
greymule More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men! Roll Tide!
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Fri Sep 06, 2002, 02:10pm
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Sam,
I think you're looking at time play / force play / runs scoring backwards. The time play / force play / runs scoring rules are about taking an apparent score off the books after the third out is recorded, not adding one on. If the run apparently scores, but the third out was a force, then the run does not score. However, if the out is recorded before the apparent score, unless there is some kind of base award... you snooze, you lose! There are no situations that I am aware of (I don't have my rule book or case book with me today) where a run would score on a batted ball after the third out, short of some base award. R1 was not awarded home - she was forced home - and that is a big difference. Long winded way of saying - run does not score.
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Tom
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Fri Sep 06, 2002, 02:43pm
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The nature of the play might be adding to the confusion. Offhand, passing a runner is the only situation I can think of in which somebody can be instantly out during a dead ball. With the ball dead on a home run, runners can miss bases or even abandon effort and enter DBT, but at least in ASA, that requires an appeal.
Take the bases-loaded walk with 2 out. In ASA fast pitch, the ball is still live, so if the batter enters DBT before reaching 1B, the umpire calls her out and no run can score. But in ASA slow pitch, the ball is dead after the pitch, so the batter entering DBT would be an appeal. On appeal, of course, the batter would be out and no run would score. Can anyone think of any other "instant out" when the ball is dead?
__________________
greymule More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men! Roll Tide!
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Fri Sep 06, 2002, 07:09pm
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Quote:
Obstruction on a preceeding runner delays their score untill the following runner is put out for the 3rd out. (Of course, you could consider that an "award".} Roger Greene
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Sat Sep 07, 2002, 09:30am
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Quote:
Also, according to POE #37, the ruling would be incorrect. The first sentence states "Passing a runner occurs during a live ball." The play above specifically notes that the passing occured during a dead-ball period. Oops! [Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Sep 7th, 2002 at 09:38 AM]
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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Sat Sep 07, 2002, 02:29pm
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Good point, IrishMafia. The case book and POE #37 do conflict. We went through that on a thread I started several months ago, when I questioned that very statement in the rule book.
My play was, R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, 1 out. B3 hits line drive down the left field line. R1 goes halfway home, but F7 grabs the ball on the line. F7 fires the ball to 3B to double up R1, who goes back into 3B ducking and covering his head. Ball shoots past 3B and through into DBT. R2, who had tagged up, happily sprints around 3B and passes R1, who is crouching on 3B unaware of where the ball went. I called R2 out for passing R1, and allowed no run to score. My question was, Since "passing a runner occurs during a live ball," what was the correct call? The consensus was my call had been correct, that the clause did not apply in that case but was in the book to cover other dead ball situations, like foul balls or time outs. I wonder about the bases-loaded, 2-out walk in slow pitch. The ball is dead after the pitch, but what if the batter for some reason sprints to 1B, takes a turn, and in doing so passes the runner on 1B before R1 scores. If we follow the case book example, the run would not score. [Edited by greymule on Sep 9th, 2002 at 01:27 PM]
__________________
greymule More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men! Roll Tide!
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Sun Sep 08, 2002, 11:46am
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Quote:
Speaking ASA This run will score. In SP, on a walk, the BR is even allowed to run through the dugout if they please (8.2.D). The passing of a runner on a walk is addressed only in the Co-Ed game, but I cannot see that being a rule exclusive to the Co-Ed game only. After all, during a dead-ball period, a runner on 2B is allowed to visit his/her 3B coach. If there is a runner on 3B, do you declare the runner from 2B out? No. This is indeed a live ball call.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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Mon Sep 09, 2002, 01:27pm
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Roger posted: "Obstruction on a preceding runner delays their score until the following runner is put out for the 3rd out.
"(Of course, you could consider that an 'award.')" Brings up a play I never thought of: R1 on 1B, 2 outs. B2 gets a hit that F9 cuts off in fairly deep center field. R1 rounds 3B and crashes into F5 a moment before B2 is tagged out sliding into 2B. I guess you have to count R1 as scoring, unless you believe he was simply rounding and wasn't making a real attempt. I suspect that very few umps would score that run, though. PS. IrishMafia: Sorry for crediting the wrong source for the "good point." I will edit my previous post accordingly. Also, how literally do you think we have to take "passing a runner occurs during a live ball"? Does it mean that when the ball is dead, no runner can be called for passing another runner? If so, ASA has a lot of case book revision to do.
__________________
greymule More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men! Roll Tide!
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Mon Sep 09, 2002, 06:28pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by greymule
Roger posted: "Obstruction on a preceding runner delays their score until the following runner is put out for the 3rd out. "(Of course, you could consider that an 'award.')" Brings up a play I never thought of: R1 on 1B, 2 outs. B2 gets a hit that F9 cuts off in fairly deep center field. R1 rounds 3B and crashes into F5 a moment before B2 is tagged out sliding into 2B. I guess you have to count R1 as scoring, unless you believe he was simply rounding and wasn't making a real attempt. I suspect that very few umps would score that run, though.[/quote} Not true. To score the run you would have to believe that R1 would have easily scored had the obstruction not occured. If the ball is in the infield (obvious, as there is a tag @ 2B), I don't think I would assume the runner would have scored on the play. Of course, this would depend on exactly how far down the line the obstruction occured. Remember, there is NO requirement, not even in Fed, to advance the runner on obstruction calls. Quote:
 That is a good question and I have already addressed and e-mail to a member of the National Staff.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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Mon Sep 09, 2002, 06:35pm
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Quote:
__________________
Tom
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Mon Sep 09, 2002, 09:40pm
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Tom,
If you are married, just ask your wife. I'm sure she will tell you. Roger Greene
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Mon Sep 09, 2002, 11:01pm
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Quote:
Yeah, she'd be happy to... I'm not sure I really want to know, though!
__________________
Tom
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Tue Sep 10, 2002, 11:29am
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Quote:
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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