missed 1st base mechanic

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Incorrect. A "purposeful" tag is regarded as a non verbal appeal. What the rule eliminated is the accidental touch, like tripping over the bag.

Also eliminated is the following accidental appeal: BR beats throw to 1B but misses the base. F3 gloves the throw and has his foot on the base. Formerly, his having the ball and touching the base constituted a missed-base appeal, and BR would be called out. (This is the main point of the gone-but-not-gone case.)

So regarding the question about a "purposeful" tag, I would have to rule on what the purpose was. F3 gloving the throw (late) has a purpose, but that purpose is not an appeal. If is purpose is to appeal and he makes that obvious in some way (usually by stating "he missed the base!" or some such), then I will rule on the appeal.

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Also eliminated is the following accidental appeal: BR beats throw to 1B but misses the base. F3 gloves the throw and has his foot on the base. Formerly, his having the ball and touching the base constituted a missed-base appeal, and BR would be called out. (This is the main point of the gone-but-not-gone case.)

How has the BR beaten the throw to 1B if he hasn't touched the base yet? I fail to see the logic here. SO if the BR steps to the side of the base and runs through, you're safing him if he "beats the throw?"

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by DonInKansas

How has the BR beaten the throw to 1B if he hasn't touched the base yet? I fail to see the logic here. SO if the BR steps to the side of the base and runs through, you're safing him if he "beats the throw?"

Yes. A runner acquires the base when he touches it or passes it. If a runner crosses, but does not touch, home plate, and there is no appeal, he scores a run.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by DonInKansas

How has the BR beaten the throw to 1B if he hasn't touched the base yet? I fail to see the logic here. SO if the BR steps to the side of the base and runs through, you're safing him if he "beats the throw?"

1.How do you handle a missed base at second?

No different.

2. "Safing" ? Would the opposite be "outing"?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

2. "Safing" ? Would the opposite be "outing"?

I hate that expression almost as much as saying, "I balled the pitch." It too sounds a little bit "odd."

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I hate that expression almost as much as saying, "I balled the pitch." It too sounds a little bit "odd."

Both expressions make umpires sound as illiterate as some players. My ears cringe when someone tries to make a verb by adding "ing" to just any word.

As for your example, anyone who "balled" anything during a game in public should be prosecuted.

[BigTex]

Originally Posted by DonInKansas

How has the BR beaten the throw to 1B if he hasn't touched the base yet? I fail to see the logic here. SO if the BR steps to the side of the base and runs through, you're safing him if he "beats the throw?"

OK Don, let me try to help your logic.

If BR hits a ball to the gap, misses first on his way to second. When BR is half way to second, F9 throws the ball out of play. Where are you going to place the BR?

[Umpmazza]

[QUOTE=DonInKansas;587888]How has the BR beaten the throw to 1B if he hasn't touched the base yet? I fail to see the logic here. SO if the BR steps to the side of the base and runs through, you're safing him if he "beats the throw?"[/QUOTE]


Everyday today and twice on sunday....LOL come on man did a tornado run through your field..... of course your going to safe him, the runner beat the ball to the base right? now the defense has to appeal that he missed a base...

[soundedlikeastrike]

Originally Posted by DonInKansas

How has the BR beaten the throw to 1B if he hasn't touched the base yet? I fail to see the logic here. SO if the BR steps to the side of the base and runs through, you're safing him if he "beats the throw?"

If the BR steps to the side of the bag, he hasn't passed it. Out would be correct.
The play requires the runner to be beyond the bag clearly. Not just his lead foot, hand, or head all the way past..

And the appeal must be clear and obvious: Ex. BR misses 1B, has beaten the throw is called safe. But has missed the bag, BR now turns to the left into fair territory on his return to 1B. F3 with his new gained knowledge of appealing a runner missing 1B, turns and tags the returning runner. Unless he say's something to indicate an appeal of the missed base; I call safe, "no, he did not make an attempt or fake towards 2B.

Originally Posted by yawetag

My thinking exactly. If the defense touches the base, accidentally or on purpose, before the runner returns, I find it hard to believe that I can't call him out. This is rewarding the offense for messing up.

That said, if the defense never touches the bag (or the runner), I've got nothing. The runner will return and touch the bag.

What's the mechanic for the same play at the plate? AFAIK, I make no call until:

1) The runner enters the dugout
2) The runner comes back and touches the plate
3) The defense tags the runner (or the plate if he's making no effort to return)

I didn't see anyone answer these for you:
1. You make no call, the run counts.
2. You make no call, the run counts.
3. You call him out, if he missed the plate and there is "a proper appeal".

The only time you signal anything at any base is when there is a play.
Or in the instance of a time play.
So, if I see you on a grandslam, make 4 safe calls, I'm throwing a peanut at ya from the gallery..

Just remember you don't rule on a runner missing a base or leaving early. You rule on an appeal of a runner missing a base or leaving early.

[ozzy6900]

We are taught that the runner is assumed to have touched the base and we are supposed to let the defense make an appeal. We then rule on the appeal.

The idiotic FED rule of the umpire calling runners out has been removed for a long time now (thankfully) and all the codes agree.

[mroyal]

I tend to disagree with those who would give a "safe" signal for someone who has not legally acquired the base. Who are we rewarding for not following the rules? The rulebreakers? I would hope not.

FED Umpire Manual (pg 35) "...When an umpire observes a base running error, he should make no verbal or non-verbal statement that could tip either team." (I think someone mentioned that already, but it was a good starting point.)

Two scenerios in my mind here. If its a bang-bang of a play and I clearly see BR missing the bag - BR is out! If it's not that close, I do nothing - as the manual says. 1) I wait for either the defense to make a live ball apeal by touching the base or BR before he aquires the base - BR is out! 2) I wait for BR to aquire the base - BR is safe and I do nothing.

Rule 8-2: Penalty (Art. 1-5): For failure to touch a base (advancing or returning),...,the runner may be called out if an appeal is made by the defensive team. The defensive team may appeal during a live ball immediately following the play...A live-ball appeal (8-2-6d) may be made by a defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner of touching the base that was missed..."

Our job is not to allow the rules to be broken. As per the manual, no signal is given on a missed base. Let the teams figure it out. Our job is not to make the BR safe when he is not.

During my training in Virgnia, it was always emphasised to limit the amount of stress you put yourself in. Why would I want to "safe" a runner when he didn't legally aquire the base (sorry, running over the base does not constitute touching it) and then bang him on an appeal? That's an argument I'm not going to have.

[mrm21711]

Originally Posted by mroyal

I tend to disagree with those who would give a "safe" signal for someone who has not legally acquired the base. Who are we rewarding for not following the rules? The rulebreakers? I would hope not.

FED Umpire Manual (pg 35) "...When an umpire observes a base running error, he should make no verbal or non-verbal statement that could tip either team." (I think someone mentioned that already, but it was a good starting point.)

Two scenerios in my mind here. If its a bang-bang of a play and I clearly see BR missing the bag - BR is out! If it's not that close, I do nothing - as the manual says. 1) I wait for either the defense to make a live ball apeal by touching the base or BR before he aquires the base - BR is out! 2) I wait for BR to aquire the base - BR is safe and I do nothing.

Rule 8-2: Penalty (Art. 1-5): For failure to touch a base (advancing or returning),...,the runner may be called out if an appeal is made by the defensive team. The defensive team may appeal during a live ball immediately following the play...A live-ball appeal (8-2-6d) may be made by a defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner of touching the base that was missed..."

Our job is not to allow the rules to be broken. As per the manual, no signal is given on a missed base. Let the teams figure it out. Our job is not to make the BR safe when he is not.

During my training in Virgnia, it was always emphasised to limit the amount of stress you put yourself in. Why would I want to "safe" a runner when he didn't legally aquire the base (sorry, running over the base does not constitute touching it) and then bang him on an appeal? That's an argument I'm not going to have.

But the runner did legally acquire the base and can only be put out on appeal. You have made a post where you make it quite clear you have no intention of listening to anybody else on the board and are going to use the mechanics that you deem fit to use even if it is incorrect. Best of luck to you.

[mroyal]

Originally Posted by mrm21711

But the runner did legally acquire the base and can only be put out on appeal. You have made a post where you make it quite clear you have no intention of listening to anybody else on the board and are going to use the mechanics that you deem fit to use even if it is incorrect. Best of luck to you.

I'm not here to take the majority rule answer from an opinion poll. If the BR leagally acquired the base, then he can't be put out. In this case, he didn't touch the base, so he is liable to be put out - yes on proper appeal. But, the manual says don't signal anything on a missed base. How is that my mechanic? Where does it say in the FED book to "safe" the BR on a missed base? It doesn't. I'm not putting my personal mechanics in here - just following the FED manual.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by mroyal

FED Umpire Manual (pg 35) "...When an umpire observes a base running error, he should make no verbal or non-verbal statement that could tip either team." (I think someone mentioned that already, but it was a good starting point.)

By not signaling you're giving the defense a clue that something is amiss. This is exactly what the manual is asking you not to do.

[mroyal]

Originally Posted by waltjp

By not signaling you're giving the defense a clue that something is amiss. This is exactly what the manual is asking you not to do.

I'm doing exactly what the manual says to do - "...make no verbal or non-verbal statement..." I'm not doing anything with my hands, I'm not saying "safe" or "out." How is that doing anything? By raising my hands and/or saying "safe," am I not making a "verbal or non-verbal statement?"