missed 1st base mechanic

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by DonInKansas

Got a rules reference for this? I don't believe a runner has a base until he touches it.

My thinking exactly. If the defense touches the base, accidentally or on purpose, before the runner returns, I find it hard to believe that I can't call him out. This is rewarding the offense for messing up.

That said, if the defense never touches the bag (or the runner), I've got nothing. The runner will return and touch the bag.

What's the mechanic for the same play at the plate? AFAIK, I make no call until:

1) The runner enters the dugout
2) The runner comes back and touches the plate
3) The defense tags the runner (or the plate if he's making no effort to return)

[David B]

Originally Posted by yawetag

My thinking exactly. If the defense touches the base, accidentally or on purpose, before the runner returns, I find it hard to believe that I can't call him out. This is rewarding the offense for messing up.

That said, if the defense never touches the bag (or the runner), I've got nothing. The runner will return and touch the bag.

What's the mechanic for the same play at the plate? AFAIK, I make no call until:

1) The runner enters the dugout
2) The runner comes back and touches the plate
3) The defense tags the runner (or the plate if he's making no effort to return)

FED used to use the accidental appeal; however, they have since taken it out. I will have to look up the references, don't have my books with me, but I think it was a couple of years ago.

thanks
David

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by David B

FED used to use the accidental appeal; however, they have since taken it out. I will have to look up the references, don't have my books with me, but I think it was a couple of years ago.

thanks
David

I thought that, too, and was looking for the rule reference, but found this instead:

Casebook 8.2.3 Situation: B1 hits a slow roller to F5 and arrivs safely but misses first base. F3 catches the ball with his foot off the base and casually steps on first base, although he believes the runner has beaten the throw. RULING: B1 is out. Because a force play is being made on the runner and the result of continuing action, F3 is required to appeal the missed base and does so by stepping on the missed base.

This sounds like an accidental appeal to me.

[dash_riprock]

That's FED for ya. Clear as mud.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

I thought that, too, and was looking for the rule reference, but found this instead:

Casebook 8.2.3 Situation: B1 hits a slow roller to F5 and arrivs safely but misses first base. F3 catches the ball with his foot off the base and casually steps on first base, although he believes the runner has beaten the throw. RULING: B1 is out. Because a force play is being made on the runner and the result of continuing action, F3 is required to appeal the missed base and does so by stepping on the missed base.

This sounds like an accidental appeal to me.

When FED removed the accidental appeal from the rule book they neglected to delete that situation from the casebook. Elliot Hopkis acknowledged that fact and issued a statement that that ruling was no longer accurate. He issued a statement again the next year when that situation still appeared in the book

Why it remains unedited to this date is a mystery, but the fact is the accidental appeal has been removed from the rule book, and that was a POE at the time.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

When FED removed the accidental appeal from the rule book they neglected to delete that situation from the casebook. Elliot Hopkis acknowledged that fact and issued a statement that that ruling was no longer accurate. He issued a statement again the next year when that situation still appeared in the book

Why it remains unedited to this date is a mystery, but the fact is the accidental appeal has been removed from the rule book, and that was a POE at the time.

This is correct. You can X out that case play if you like: it is no longer a valid ruling.

[yawetag]

So let me get this straight so I don't look like the rookie umpire:

BR misses 1B without defense tag of base or runner before BR passes: Signal safe and wait for an appeal.

BR misses 1B with purposeful tag of base or runner after BR passes (no verbal appeal is made): Signal safe and wait for verbal appeal.

BR misses 1B with appeal: Call BR out on appeal.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by yawetag

So let me get this straight so I don't look like the rookie umpire:

BR misses 1B without defense tag of base or runner before BR passes: Signal safe and wait for an appeal.

Correct.

BR misses 1B with purposeful tag of base or runner after BR passes (no verbal appeal is made): Signal safe and wait for verbal appeal.

Incorrect. A "purposeful" tag is regarded as a non verbal appeal. What the rule eliminated is the accidental touch, like tripping over the bag.

BR misses 1B with appeal: Call BR out on appeal.

Correct.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

When FED removed the accidental appeal from the rule book they neglected to delete that situation from the casebook. Elliot Hopkis acknowledged that fact and issued a statement that that ruling was no longer accurate. He issued a statement again the next year when that situation still appeared in the book

Why it remains unedited to this date is a mystery, but the fact is the accidental appeal has been removed from the rule book, and that was a POE at the time.

That is confusing. I guess its good for us umpires that coaches don't read rule books.

[David B]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

That is confusing. I guess its good for us umpires that coaches don't read rule books.

That is the value of the internet. You have sites like this one that can clarify things that the FED won't address.

Also on the FED site, you have the Interpretations posted on the internet that clarify some of the mistakes etc.,

NCAA does a good job of addressing changes several times a year, problems that are occuring. FED should follow suit.

But as you stated, coaches don't know the rule so you don't have anything to worry about. ..

Thanks
David

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

That is confusing. I guess its good for us umpires that coaches don't read rule books.

No. The rulebook has it right. It's the casebook that wasn't corrected.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

No. The rulebook has it right. It's the casebook that wasn't corrected.

The ones I deal with don't read either.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

I thought that, too, and was looking for the rule reference, but found this instead:

Casebook 8.2.3 Situation: B1 hits a slow roller to F5 and arrives safely but misses first base. F3 catches the ball with his foot off the base and casually steps on first base, although he believes the runner has beaten the throw. RULING: B1 is out. Because a force play is being made on the runner and the result of continuing action, F3 is required to appeal the missed base and does so by stepping on the missed base.

This sounds like an accidental appeal to me.

Another case play -

8.4.2 SITUATION B: With R1 at first, B2 hits a double into right center, sending R1 to third. However, R1 misses second base. F6 is standing on second when he catches the throw from the outfield. He then throws the ball to the pitcher.
RULING: Although R1 missed second, no call will be made by the umpire because F6 did not make an intentional appeal of the missed base.