When to call Time on an injury (FED)

[Tom H.]

Hello Forum!
Looking for opinions on a play that I had yesterday (‘scrimmage game’ but all calls ‘live’) that involved an injury.
R1 & R2 -- GB to F4 who does not pick it up clean – F4 decides to go to 1B for the sure out – F3 stretching for throw & ball beats the BR – BR “misses” the base but not F3’s foot/ankle (BR had to step on the 2B side of bag to make this contact—at first not sure on intention, later felt that it was unintentional just dumb) –F3 goes down in a heap & is rolling around still in possession of the ball. From what I saw of the contact by the BR on F3 and his reaction I felt that it could be a significant injury. Meanwhile F2 was heading for Home and F1 for 3B.
I then called Time and told runners to return to 2B & 3B and allowed the HC to attend to F3. Prior to returning to game play the Offensive HC wanted an explanation of why I called Time and did not let runs score (he was ‘loosing’ by a lot of runs). I told him that safety of the players was the reason. As I watched the BR’s reaction to what happened I was convinced that it was not intentional (if it was an intentional act there would be no way that I would let them gain an advantage and would have an EJ).
If I am remembering my rule correctly an injury to a player NOT directly involved in a ‘play’ is delayed DB so perhaps I ‘pulled the trigger’ prematurely but with the fact that it was not a ‘regular’ game (scrimmage) and the possibility of intention I killed the play. Made this decision in the span of 5-10 seconds.
What say ye?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Tom H.

Hello Forum!
Looking for opinions on a play that I had yesterday (‘scrimmage game’ but all calls ‘live’) that involved an injury.
R1 & R2 -- GB to F4 who does not pick it up clean – F4 decides to go to 1B for the sure out – F3 stretching for throw & ball beats the BR – BR “misses” the base but not F3’s foot/ankle (BR had to step on the 2B side of bag to make this contact—at first not sure on intention, later felt that it was unintentional just dumb) –F3 goes down in a heap & is rolling around still in possession of the ball. From what I saw of the contact by the BR on F3 and his reaction I felt that it could be a significant injury. Meanwhile F2 was heading for Home and F1 for 3B.
I then called Time and told runners to return to 2B & 3B and allowed the HC to attend to F3. Prior to returning to game play the Offensive HC wanted an explanation of why I called Time and did not let runs score (he was ‘loosing’ by a lot of runs). I told him that safety of the players was the reason. As I watched the BR’s reaction to what happened I was convinced that it was not intentional (if it was an intentional act there would be no way that I would let them gain an advantage and would have an EJ).
If I am remembering my rule correctly an injury to a player NOT directly involved in a ‘play’ is delayed DB so perhaps I ‘pulled the trigger’ prematurely but with the fact that it was not a ‘regular’ game (scrimmage) and the possibility of intention I killed the play. Made this decision in the span of 5-10 seconds.
What say ye?

5-2-1-d

You don't call time unless further play would jeopardize the injured player's safety.

[Bishopcolle]

Delayed dead ball? Not really dead, is it? I think it is a delayed "time out call." Let the play run, you can still eject if after you think it through you find intent...It is not a "serious" injury, like a blow to the head, so I think I'd let it play out....

[DG]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

Delayed dead ball? Not really dead, is it? I think it is a delayed "time out call." Let the play run, you can still eject if after you think it through you find intent...It is not a "serious" injury, like a blow to the head, so I think I'd let it play out....

Malicious contact is immediate dead ball. So if you are going to eject the BR then runners go back. Since BR is also out before reaching 1B I expect the runners would go back to TOP base.

Incidently, a pre-season scrimmage game would be a real good time to eject for MC so he might be more careful when the season starts.

[Bishopcolle]

Originally Posted by DG

Malicious contact is immediate dead ball. So if you are going to eject the BR then runners go back. Since BR is also out before reaching 1B I expect the runners would go back to TOP base.

Incidently, a pre-season scrimmage game would be a real good time to eject for MC so he might be more careful when the season starts.

I agree with you on the MC...if that is what you have, bang it dead immediately....but

"at first not sure on intention, later felt that it was unintentional just dumb" with this as his statement, I was thinking delayed time-out...let it play, and then make a ruling....

[jicecone]

As with all calls "Good Judgement" is required.

I have officiated many many sporting contests in both ice hockey and baseball, just remember, you are certified to officiate. When you receive your board certification to practice medicine, then will you be able to make that call perfectly. If you have to error, Error on the side of safety.

Any coach that questions that, should not be allowed around kids.

[mbyron]

Here's how I think of this question. Suppose you let play continue. How long will that take? 10 seconds? Can't the average batter runner get around the bases (4x90 feet = 360 feet = 120 yards) in less than 15 seconds? That's not much time.

So now ask yourself: in what kinds of cases will 10 or 15 seconds make a difference? That's the only difference between stopping play immediately and letting play continue.

One answer has already been given: if the injured player is at risk of further injury, then kill it.

If the injured player is unconscious, has stopped breathing, or is bleeding from the ears (serious head injury), then 10-20 seconds can make a difference. If the injured player is cut so badly that you see arterial spray, then you also need to stop play. These injuries are quite rare, but if you happen to see you address it immediately.

Some guys add a compound fracture (bone sticking through skin), which is kind of a gross injury and has additional risk of shock. It's not, however, life threatening, and 10 seconds will not make a difference -- it doesn't meet my test.

Otherwise, let play continue. If a coach complains, tell him that you saw the injury, that by rule we play on, and that the 10 seconds needed to do so didn't make a difference to the injured player's condition. Heck, the first 10 seconds they stand around an injured player and ask where it hurts.

[CajunNewBlue]

Sorry to disagree with the OP's umpire... but this is MC and is referenced in the casebook almost verbatim. if this was a high school level game (i know some younger groups play by FED also) but, if it was high school... they darn well know better what part of the base to step on. If the runner wasn't bumped into F3 or stumbled, then ran over his foot... I'm calling MC.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

Sorry to disagree with the OP's umpire... but this is MC and is referenced in the casebook almost verbatim. if this was a high school level game (i know some younger groups play by FED also) but, if it was high school... they darn well know better what part of the base to step on. If the runner wasn't bumped into F3 or stumbled, then ran over his foot... I'm calling MC.

Me too. That play is as chickens--t as it gets.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

Sorry to disagree with the OP's umpire... but this is MC and is referenced in the casebook almost verbatim. if this was a high school level game (i know some younger groups play by FED also) but, if it was high school... they darn well know better what part of the base to step on. If the runner wasn't bumped into F3 or stumbled, then ran over his foot... I'm calling MC.

I'm not disagreeing with the conclusion but where in the casebook does it cite that unintentionally stepping on the foot/ankle of the fielder is MC?

-Josh

[youngump]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Here's how I think of this question. Suppose you let play continue. How long will that take? 10 seconds? Can't the average batter runner get around the bases (4x90 feet = 360 feet = 120 yards) in less than 15 seconds? That's not much time.

So now ask yourself: in what kinds of cases will 10 or 15 seconds make a difference? That's the only difference between stopping play immediately and letting play continue.

One answer has already been given: if the injured player is at risk of further injury, then kill it.

If the injured player is unconscious, has stopped breathing, or is bleeding from the ears (serious head injury), then 10-20 seconds can make a difference. If the injured player is cut so badly that you see arterial spray, then you also need to stop play. These injuries are quite rare, but if you happen to see you address it immediately.

Some guys add a compound fracture (bone sticking through skin), which is kind of a gross injury and has additional risk of shock. It's not, however, life threatening, and 10 seconds will not make a difference -- it doesn't meet my test.

Otherwise, let play continue. If a coach complains, tell him that you saw the injury, that by rule we play on, and that the 10 seconds needed to do so didn't make a difference to the injured player's condition. Heck, the first 10 seconds they stand around an injured player and ask where it hurts.

Do I read this that F3 had the ball when he called time? If so, continued play would have either involved F3 playing on the ankle or someone on the team running at F3 at velocity to get the ball. I don't think your 10 second rule is really looking at this correctly.
________
buy a condo in Pattaya

[Kevin Finnerty]

He's saying that it is almost always intentional and probably in this instance as well, and that he, like many of us, take a dim view of that particular stunt because it's cowardly and bush--especially if the first baseman is giving you a clear shot at the bag. If it's your judgment that it was unintentional, then fine; but if it's done, I am virtually always going to discern intent.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by youngump

Do I read this that F3 had the ball when he called time? If so, continued play would have either involved F3 playing on the ankle or someone on the team running at F3 at velocity to get the ball. I don't think your 10 second rule is really looking at this correctly.

My comment was not directly about the OP. And if runners are moving between bases, I will not be granting time to F3 when he falls to the ground.

10-15 seconds is the time it would take for the last runner to run all the way around the diamond. The defense running around is irrelevant. My point was that I will not stop play unless that 10-15 seconds would make a difference to saving the injured player's life.

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by jdmara

I'm not disagreeing with the conclusion but where in the casebook does it cite that unintentionally stepping on the foot/ankle of the fielder is MC?

-Josh

I am currently looking for it in the current one.... I know ive read it in one of the following... 2009 baseball rules or caseplays... 2008 baseball rules or caseplays or rules by topic. but perhaps i pulled this one out of my butt from the FED or NCAA softball rules (i know its baseball, but dang, if its MC for the girls im calling it for the boys). its in one of them.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

I am currently looking for it in the current one.... I know ive read it in one of the following... 2009 baseball rules or caseplays... 2008 baseball rules or caseplays or rules by topic. but perhaps i pulled this one out of my butt from the FED or NCAA softball rules (i know its baseball, but dang, if its MC for the girls im calling it for the boys). its in one of them.

Malicious contact requires excessive force and/or intent to injure - any maybe avoidable contact. Too many people are judging any contact as malicious.