Larsen's Perfect Game

[greymule]

I hope that game is released on DVD. I love watching the full games instead of just the "highlights."

I think some sportswriters voted it (on one of the many such lists) baseball's third-greatest "moment," behind the homers by Thomson in 1951 and Mazeroski in 1960.

The only living players from that game are Larsen, Berra, Carey, McDougald, and Snider.

Mantle claimed that he was never more nervous that late in that game.

Without looking it up, name the eight (future) Hall-of-Famers who played.

I suspect it was the only perfect game thrown by someone who, before the game, didn't know there was such a thing as a perfect game.

[Kevin Finnerty]

I don't need to look them up, nor did I need to look them up last night during the game when the subject came up. And I won't spoil it for everybody by rattling them all off. But a couple beside the obvious guys: Phil Rizzuto hung on to play for the '56 Yanks, as did Enos Slaughter.

It's cool that with all those Hall of Famers playing that both managers were also Hall of Famers. AND, Hall of Fame manager Dick Williams played on the Dodgers that year.

Among the other non-HOF managerial talent on those two clubs: Billy Martin, Don Zimmer, Hank Bauer, Roger Craig and of course, Gil Hodges (who should be in the Hall). They all won pennants except Zimmer, who won the East with the Cubs one year. Yogi was also a pennant winning manager.

That was some amazingly interesting sidebar stuff to outshine and Larsen did it.

[ASA/NYSSOBLUE]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

I don't need to look them up, nor did I need to look them up last night during the game when the subject came up. And I won't spoil it for everybody by rattling them all off. But a couple beside the obvious guys: Phil Rizzuto hung on to play for the '56 Yanks, as did Enos Slaughter.

It's cool that with all those Hall of Famers playing that both managers were also Hall of Famers. AND, Hall of Fame manager Dick Williams played on the Dodgers that year.

Among the other non-HOF managerial talent on those two clubs: Billy Martin, Don Zimmer, Hank Bauer, Roger Craig and of course, Gil Hodges (who should be in the Hall). They all won pennants except Zimmer, who won the East with the Cubs one year. Yogi was also a pennant winning manager.

That was some amazingly interesting sidebar stuff to outshine and Larsen did it.

And 16 year old Joe Torre was in the left field stands....another HOF'r some day

and lets not forget two HOF announcers - Mel Allen and Vin Scully...ooops - THREE - the radio broadcast was done by Bob Wolff..

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by greymule

Phil Rizzuto did not play in that game. He played his last game in August 1956.

For years I had assumed that Hodges was in the Hall of Fame, but of course he's not. If Hodges makes it (lifetime .273), and with Arky Vaughn, Phil Rizzuto, and Harmon Killebrew there, you could make a case for Bauer (.277 lifetime and a fine clutch player). Actually, if you're enshrining everybody above "pretty good," then Dale Mitchell belongs there too (.312 lifetime).

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

Phil Rizzuto hung on to play for the '56 Yanks, as did Enos Slaughter.

That was my exact quote. I didn't say that Rizzuto played in that game, but that he played for the club that year, as did Slaughter. Williams played for the Dodgers that year , also. I never said he played in that game, either.

Regarding the Hall of Fame: Batting averages have little to do with anything when it comes to Hall of Fame voting or candidacy. In fact, they have virtually nothing to do with it when used in a comparison like that. "Pretty Good"? Harmon Killebrew hit 573 home runs, which was second all time in the A.L to Babe Ruth when he retired. Killebrew had six home run crowns, eight 40-homer seasons and nine 100-RBI seasons. He was also an MVP. Pretty good, huh? His low average is inconsequential when compared to some others without anything close to Killebrew's production. You didn't give it much thought when you put his name in there based on batting average.

Gil Hodges played Gold Glove caliber defense and had seven consecutive 100-plus RBI seasons and a 98-RBI season and for a Brooklyn club that won six pennants. He also had a pair of 40-homer seasons and four others of 30 or more. He was one of the game's true gentlemen and one of its most respected leaders. Then there's the little matter of winning a World Series as manager of the Amazin' Mets.

Hodges is not in the Hall, because Ted Williams led a contingent of veterans committee voters to stop electing any 50s era Dodgers after Pee Wee Reese and Duke Snider got in. Hodges is not an overwhelming choice, but with Orlando Cepeda and Tony Perez in there, Hodges, the 50s version of Perez (but with better hands) should be in there too.

Bill Mazeroski had over 100 double plays a year. He may have been the best defensive second baseman ever. That's why he's in the Hall--despite his .260 batting average.

[gordon30307]

Bill Mazeroski had over 100 double plays a year. He may have been the best defensive second baseman ever. That's why he's in the Hall--despite his .260 batting average.[/QUOTE]

Did you consult with Joe Morgan before making such a statement?????????

[Kevin Finnerty]

I hear you. Joe's opinion of his own career is so glowing, he was able to shamelessly schmooze his way in on the first ballot, making him the least productive first-ballot Hall of Famer in history.

Morgan's arm was Little League compared to Mazeroski's. It's hard to compare Morgan to complete defensive second basemen like Maz or Sandberg or Alomar or Frank White, because if he fielded a ball going to his right, he couldn't record an out. Sparky Anderson said, "We always preferred to have Davey [Concepcion] take those balls."

[dash_riprock]

Maz's D certainly earns him a place in the Hall. I think he had the fastest pivot ever - something like 0.6 seconds from receiving the throw to releasing the ball. And a sure way to get injured was to try and take him out on a DP. It was like sliding into a building.

(From a lifelong Yanks fan who believes the Baseball Hall of Fame is misnamed through exclusion, from it's membership, of the most prolific hitter in the history of the game.)

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Maz's D certainly earns him a place in the Hall. I think he had the fastest pivot ever - something like 0.6 seconds from receiving the throw to releasing the ball. And a sure way to get injured was to try and take him out on a DP. It was like sliding into a building.

(From a lifelong Yanks fan who believes the Baseball Hall of Fame is misnamed through exclusion, from it's membership, of the most prolific hitter in the history of the game.)

He was a good player but I think he got in for hitting one of the most famous walk off homers ever. Pete Rose a great player but a complete failure as a human being. Hard to come up with one redeeming quality.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

That was my exact quote. I didn't say that Rizzuto played in that game, but that he played for the club that year, as did Slaughter.

C'mon now, be honest: we can see what you wrote. Here's the sequence:

greymule wrote: "Without looking it up, name the eight (future) Hall-of-Famers who played."

KF wrote: "I don't need to look them up, nor did I need to look them up last night during the game when the subject came up. And I won't spoil it for everybody by rattling them all off. But a couple beside the obvious guys: Phil Rizzuto hung on to play for the '56 Yanks, as did Enos Slaughter. "

Maybe you didn't mean to say Rizzuto and Slaughter played in the game, but it is what you wrote. Claiming a partial quote as your exact quote, and distorting thereby the meaning is, well, spinning.

By the way, I agree with your comment that the notion of a perfect game wasn't widely known at that time. I listened to that game over the speaker system at my grade school (don't think that would happen today!), and until the reading the next morning's paper, we just thought it was a (mere) no-hitter.

[Kevin Finnerty]

I wasn't naming the players, I was adding other guys like Rizzuto and Williams and Slaughter who were with their respective clubs that year. I begged off listing all the players, and tried to add some interesting sidebar by noting that Rizzuto and Slaughter also were on the club that year.

And my exact quote said just that: "Phil Rizzuto hung on to play for the '56 Yanks, as did Enos Slaughter." Play for the '56 Yanks. Okay?

You must have too little to do, there, Dave, that you have to twist my words and trash my explanation.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I hung on to be born that year...does that count for anything?

[Kevin Finnerty]

Maybe it's just a coincidence, but my mom later said that I kicked a lot that month. I guess it was the first indication that I was going to be a baseball guy.

[greymule]

Slaughter did play in Larsen's perfect game. That's why I was confused about the mention of Rizzuto.

But I was wrong about 8 HOF players. It was 7. I looked up Maglie a while back and remembered erroneously that he was in the HOF. Of course, I could claim that by saying "future" Hall-of-Famers, I was including Hodges on the assumption that he'll eventually make it. And I'd take Furillo and Bauer ahead of some guys who are in.

HOF in bold:

Maglie Campanella Hodges Gilliam Robinson Reese Amoros Snider Furillo Mitchell

Larsen Berra Collins Martin Carey McDougald Slaughter Mantle Bauer

I gave up on HOF arguments long ago. The criteria for entry are not clear enough. (Does a good, solid—but hardly great—pitcher get in if his arm hangs in there for 18 years and he wins 220 games? How low can an infielder hit and still make it? If being a scumbag can keep you out, can being a swell guy nudge you in?)

We can all name our choice of guys who are in but shouldn't be and guys who aren't in but should be. And we're all aware that there are players who are better than their stats, and players not as good as their stats.

Also, it's obvious that politics has played a significant part with regard to the borderline players.

I enjoy more trying to put together first, second, third team All-Time All Stars (who would your three outfielders be?), even though it's hard to compare players across eras.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by greymule

Slaughter did play in Larsen's perfect game. That's why I was confused about the mention of Rizzuto.

But I was wrong about 8 HOF players. It was 7. I looked up Maglie a while back and remembered erroneously that he was in the HOF. Of course, I could claim that by saying "future" Hall-of-Famers, I was including Hodges on the assumption that he'll eventually make it. And I'd take Furillo and Bauer ahead of some guys who are in.

HOF in bold:

Maglie Campanella Hodges Gilliam Robinson Reese Amoros Snider Furillo Mitchell

Larsen Berra Collins Martin Carey McDougald Slaughter Mantle Bauer

I gave up on HOF arguments long ago. The criteria for entry are not clear enough. (Does a good, solid—but hardly great—pitcher get in if his arm hangs in there for 18 years and he wins 220 games? How low can an infielder hit and still make it? If being a scumbag can keep you out, can being a swell guy nudge you in?)

We can all name our choice of guys who are in but shouldn't be and guys who aren't in but should be. And we're all aware that there are players who are better than their stats, and players not as good as their stats.

Also, it's obvious that politics has played a significant part with regard to the borderline players.

I enjoy more trying to put together first, second, third team All-Time All Stars (who would your three outfielders be?), even though it's hard to compare players across eras.

GREAT post!

"Does a good, solid—but hardly great—pitcher get in if his arm hangs in there for 18 years and he wins 220 games?"

No. You just described Jerry Reuss. And as cool and steady as he was, he wasn't a Hall of Famer.

"How low can an infielder hit and still make it?"

Joe Morgan batted .271 with a pair of .300 seasons, a lone 100 RBI season and one of the worst throwing arms in memory and he went in on the first ballot. Mazeroski at .260, and Ozzie at .262 were irrelevant numbers because they were brilliant defensively. (Watch for Omar Vizquel, if he ever retires. He's in there, too.) Catcher Ray Schalk at .253 with no power is the very lowest average in the entire Hall, but Schalk was a legendary leader, and that got him in.

"If being a scumbag can keep you out, can being a swell guy nudge you in?"

You just described borderline guys Ron Santo and Gil Hodges, and yes, in my opinion, their being swell guys nudges them in, or should have by now. Being a prlck has kept borderline guy Jim Rice out. And he wasn't a prlck, but Andre Dawson's not being in could be attributable to his being cool toward writers. And that's a sin. If it's the writers voting, being a good guy to the writers helps (wait until you see how high a percentage of votes Rickey Henderson gets... 95-98 percent), and to the veterans, being a stellar teammate and good guy to your peers helps (Phil Rizzuto and Pee Wee Reese). Just not enough for Hodges or Santo, but enough for Nellie Fox and Bill Mazeroski.

I'll tell you one thing, we are watching a hell of a lot of future Hall of Famers right now.

Ironic occasion: My father, son and I attended a Padres-Rangers interleague game a half dozen years back. In that game, we saw six future Hall of Famers: Pudge Rodriguez, Alex Rodriguez, Rafael Palmeiro (so we thought then), Rickey Henderson, Tony Gwynn (pinch-hitter, who lined a single and left to a standing O) and Trevor Hoffman (who should go once the closers start getting in). And that six Hall of Famer game was between two last place teams.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

You must have too little to do, there, Dave, that you have to twist my words and trash my explanation.

I do plead guilty to trashing your explanation, but twisting your words? By quoting you?

And I do have plenty to do; I'm just avoiding it.