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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 08, 2008, 05:03pm
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Oh NO!

Quote:
"Can't ask BU to make 2 calls within 3 seconds of each other when they are 144 feet apart.... I'd rather BU move over and get the proper angle at 1st, and let PU have plenty of time to think about his angle at 3rd."
This statement is, in my opinion, total BullRoar!

In most cases the BU will be in "B" after adjusting to the play at first base. He then simply "opens the gate" as we do on a steal of second and allow the ball to take us to the play at third.

In most cases this means I gain two, three or even four steps towards third base over the back of the mound.

At the VERY MOST an old guy like me is within 60' of third base easily (and if I started in "C" I am even closer) and if you believe in "angle over distance" the call at third is easy and if you are smart enough to continue to move towards third base when things are all over you'll never be more than 45' from the call.

In my opinion this is far superior than encouraging the PU to leave early from his responsibilities of fair/foul, pulled foot and swipe tag at first to get up to a position at third base that may, under the best of conditions, be equal to that attained by the BU.

Even though PBUC has ventured back towards the PU moving that does not make it 'best" for umpires working non-professional games.

Since professional umpire administrators can't decide (the mechanic has changed seven times since 1974) we will hardly find the answer here.

Regards,
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 08, 2008, 05:13pm
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Ok, your math wins.

127...
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 08, 2008, 05:21pm
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True Tim, we won't find an answer here.

I believe that a PU that is in shape can move 70 feet from the time after we know the ball is fair (when fielder fields the ball) until the time it has taken the fielder to throw to first, then the runner goes his remaining 80 feet to third. I know I can...

I also believe that a BU can get pulled feet and swipe tags from B or C most of the time (above 90%).

So, by moving up to third on this play, we are compromising a potential problem at first with a swipe tag or pulled foot for, what I believe to be, a better look at a close play at third.

All compromise... no matter how you slice it. You could have situations either way where something doesn't get covered with either mechanic... And like you say, one thread ain't gonna solve the problem that a 2 man system has always had.

But in CT, from my limited 4 year experience , its general practice that you come out.

And yes, its 127 feet from 1st-3rd. I haven't done math since the 11th grade, who knows where I got 144 from.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 08, 2008, 05:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim C
In most cases the BU will be in "B" after adjusting to the play at first base. He then simply "opens the gate" as we do on a steal of second and allow the ball to take us to the play at third.

In most cases this means I gain two, three or even four steps towards third base over the back of the mound.

At the VERY MOST an old guy like me is within 60' of third base easily (and if I started in "C" I am even closer) and if you believe in "angle over distance" the call at third is easy and if you are smart enough to continue to move towards third base when things are all over you'll never be more than 45' from the call.
This is the only problem I have with your post Tim (not that you care )

You get to a position around B to make your call at first, more than 90 feet away from 3rd. As the play takes you to third, you take as many as four steps, and are now 60 feet away? More than 30 feet in 4 steps, and 3 seconds?

And now, you want the umpire to "continue to move towards third" and you won't be more than 45 feet from the call? So, make up your mind, out or safe, 60 feet away, on the dead run (not a good idea) and keep running to 45 feet after the play is over, and now make your call?

I'm not sure I follow your stealth movements... although I understand your point about this being BUs call to begin with.

Not trying to be a problem, just asking for clarification.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 08, 2008, 06:19pm
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Hmm,

I guess I am too practical:

When there is a play at first base my "B" position (most likely) is located somewhere near the 1st base side of the mound. I don't make calls at first standing on the base.

If I am near the mound (and adjusting to make MY CALL at first) I am not within probably 20' of the base (as noted I am closer to the mound than 1st base) because I believe in angle over distance.

So when the play is made to third I am now only crossing over the mound (3 or 4 steps) and make the call.

And I certainly think the PU needs to stay on the first base lone longer than you do.

Regards,
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 08, 2008, 07:35pm
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Tuss,

I couldn't disagree more with your thinking on this. I never like to see the PU come up on the 2nd play in the infield. When I'm the Base Umpire, that's my job title. There are times when the PU should be at 3rd base. I would just like to see him there at those special times, and not because I can't do my job on the bases.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 08, 2008, 11:23pm
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Tuss, if you are using correct mechanics on the bases, you will have no problem taking the second play in the infield. There is no strategic advantage to having the PU rotate up to cover 3b in this situation. I don't cover 3b in these situations as the PU and I don't expect my partners to either.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 08, 2008, 11:50pm
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T, et al - I'm just having a hard time taking your words and visualizing them.

Does the following picture describe what you would do here? R2 (red square) Ground ball to 3rd (black circle) Move to where the yellow block is, make your call at first, then open the gate, move along the grey line, stop, then make your call at 3rd?

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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 08, 2008, 11:59pm
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Must be the Mariners in town...Don't see too many fans in the upper decks.

Seriously..you have to stay around the working area behind the mound to get both plays, and as bu you have to get both plays...PU has responsiblity of an overthrow on the play at first - not a pulled foot, because bu should have angle to get that as well...
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 09, 2008, 03:26am
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Tuss,

With R2, why would you be in B? You should be starting in C, so you just drift over toward 1st along with F5s throw, set as the ball is passing you, see the play, call it, take a drop step with the right leg, move toward the 3rd base line and let the ball turn you toward 3rd, set again, make the call.

You won't be coming from all the way over where you have the yellow square. You are calling the play at 1st from about right behind the mound, then drifting back the other way. Great angle for each play, and looks really sharp too!
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 09, 2008, 07:30am
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~I'm working on this~

Tuss:

From your illustration:

I am located much more towards a direct line to home plate than you when there is a runner on 1st base only.

I would say 6' feet closer to the plate.

When the first play starts to occur I pause, read and react and make sure I move to a location that gives me the best angle possible for the play at first base.

This "most likely" moves be even more towards the plate (by fractions possibly).

As soon as the play is complete at first I then "open the gate" and get approximately to an area near the start of your line that lines up the play at third.

Of course that position is a "moving target" as I am again reading the throw for angle. IF I take my four steps then I am clearly on the third base side of the mound and no more than 60' from the call (sometimes closer) and I take the call HOK and then as I signal I move closer towards the play.

Contrary to that:

If the PU hold HIS position until the play is completd at first base and THEN releases there is no way he can be closer to third than I am.

This is the EXACT reason the PBUC had (originally) wanted the BU to make the call. PUs were leaving the play at first base to quickly and were not available for the pulled foot/sweep tag assistance at first base. Also remember that the PU has DBT over throw responsibility and needs to recognize that BEFORE he releases to third.

I am open to learning change but you (and the PBUC) has not come close to convincing me to change this mechanic.

This entire discussions in moot if there is R2 only so being in "C" it is even more obvious that the BU should take both potential calls.

Regards,

Last edited by Tim C; Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 09:18am.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 09, 2008, 09:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim C
This statement is, in my opinion, total BullRoar!

In most cases the BU will be in "B" after adjusting to the play at first base. He then simply "opens the gate" as we do on a steal of second and allow the ball to take us to the play at third.

In most cases this means I gain two, three or even four steps towards third base over the back of the mound.

At the VERY MOST an old guy like me is within 60' of third base easily (and if I started in "C" I am even closer) and if you believe in "angle over distance" the call at third is easy and if you are smart enough to continue to move towards third base when things are all over you'll never be more than 45' from the call.

In my opinion this is far superior than encouraging the PU to leave early from his responsibilities of fair/foul, pulled foot and swipe tag at first to get up to a position at third base that may, under the best of conditions, be equal to that attained by the BU.

Even though PBUC has ventured back towards the PU moving that does not make it 'best" for umpires working non-professional games.

Since professional umpire administrators can't decide (the mechanic has changed seven times since 1974) we will hardly find the answer here.

Regards,
I agree that the answer can not be simple as you stated, the pro's can't make up their minds.

In going from state to state I've noted a difference, and in TX they were adamant that PU takes a second play (but that was years ago - might be different now)

The main thing is that the two umpires who are calling "be on the same page".

I see advantages and disadvantages either way, but not one way that is for certain "best"

Thanks
David
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 09, 2008, 11:23am
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My opinion: Coaches recognize that the play at third is / can be trouble for either umpire. They'd rather have "help" at first (where you know there's going to be a play) than a possibly (but not guaranteed) better look at third (where there might not be a play).
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 09, 2008, 12:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim C
This entire discussions in moot if there is R2 only so being in "C" it is even more obvious that the BU should take both potential calls.
Which is exactly the scenario in question. The "second play in the infield" is when there is R2 only. From C, there is no reason the BU can't get them both.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 09, 2008, 03:21pm
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With 2 outs, I'm in a deep B...

Possible that a fast lefty could chop one down to third, R2 holds up not wanting to run into a tag, throw across, safe, back over to 3rd and we have a play.

Not to mention 2nd and 3rd, this exact play could happen, and I'm in a deep B there too. Ground ball to F5 who is playing back, R3 breaks for home on contact, team willing to trade an out for a run throws on to first, R2 breaks.

If you're saying to get both is easier from C, then you must not be getting to the same spot you would for the call at first if you started from a deep B.

I get to about the same spot... perhaps my next diagram will be from Ebbets Field
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