Score the run

[johnnyg08]

The runner hasn't safely touched 1B before the 3rd out...no run. I don't understand the advantageous 4th out appeal here...that wouldn't be right would it?

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

The runner hasn't safely touched 1B before the 3rd out...no run. I don't understand the advantageous 4th out appeal here...that wouldn't be right would it?

R2 was tagged for the 3rd out. BR never touched 1st so the defense has the right to appeal the BR. This appeal creates a 4th out which negates the run. The 4th out is rarely seen because most teams don't even realize that it exists and many amateur umpires don't realize it either! Anytime a BR gives up on a 3rd out not made by him is subject to appeal

[johnnyg08]

great situation to bring up on here.

[mattmets]

This might be a stupid question but what if BR keeps running and touches first base (either not realizing the third out has been made or whatever) after the tag on R2? Is the run still nullified because the touch was after the third out?

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mattmets

This might be a stupid question but what if BR keeps running and touches first base (either not realizing the third out has been made or whatever) after the tag on R2? Is the run still nullified because the touch was after the third out?

No. Score the run. The advantageous 4th out is no longer possible.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

No. Score the run. The advantageous 4th out is no longer possible.

I agree. Now take this: BR rounds first, but misses it -- then the third out is made by tagging BR as he slides into second. Can BR still correct his error?

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree. Now take this: BR rounds first, but misses it -- then the third out is made by tagging BR as he slides into second. Can BR still correct his error?

Wow, Bob. This one gets heavy.

Can a retired runner correct a baserunning error? Well, he can be appealed, and he's still on the field so it would seem unfair to not let him do so.

But can you have an advantaqeous 4th out when the 3rd out was made by the same player? Would the batter be 0 for 2? (just kidding)

I would let him correct the error. And I stand ready to be corrected.

[DG]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree. Now take this: BR rounds first, but misses it -- then the third out is made by tagging BR as he slides into second. Can BR still correct his error?

No, he is out. Defense could appeal him missing 1B for advantageous 4th out though.

[johnnyg08]

well, you wouldn't have anything to appeal for the advantageous 4th out appeal. If BR reaches 1B, then, IMO you have a time play. Did the tag take place after R3 touched HP? If yes, count the run. If not, no run.

I still don't know if this sitch (OP) qualifies as an advantageous 4th out appeal. Since the 3rd out already happened, BR doesn't have an obligation to touch 1st does he?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

R2 was tagged for the 3rd out. BR never touched 1st so the defense has the right to appeal the BR. This appeal creates a 4th out which negates the run. The 4th out is rarely seen because most teams don't even realize that it exists and many amateur umpires don't realize it either! Anytime a BR gives up on a 3rd out not made by him is subject to appeal

The defense cannot appeal BR. You can't appeal a runner at a base he never reached. The out is automatically called by the umpire.

If you say that the defense can appeal BR in this, then the flip side is that they would also have the choice not to. if that was the case, how exactly do you account for BR absent an appeal? He never reached first, yet was never put out. It is this contradiction that shows why this is not an appealable offense, but an automatic out.

To take it a step further, let's say that we have the same situation in the OP, but with no one out. The play happens the same way (touch of home, tag of R2, BR gives up.) Now there is one out, and BR is sitting in the dugout. If we use your logic, and the defense appeals the out, then we have two out. What happens if a pitch is thrown instead? BR was never put out, but he's not on base. Do you go and get BR out of the dugout and put him on first?

In short, desertion is an automatic out, not an appeal.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Matt

The defense cannot appeal BR. You can't appeal a runner at a base he never reached. The out is automatically called by the umpire.

If you say that the defense can appeal BR in this, then the flip side is that they would also have the choice not to. if that was the case, how exactly do you account for BR absent an appeal? He never reached first, yet was never put out. It is this contradiction that shows why this is not an appealable offense, but an automatic out.

To take it a step further, let's say that we have the same situation in the OP, but with no one out. The play happens the same way (touch of home, tag of R2, BR gives up.) Now there is one out, and BR is sitting in the dugout. If we use your logic, and the defense appeals the out, then we have two out. What happens if a pitch is thrown instead? BR was never put out, but he's not on base. Do you go and get BR out of the dugout and put him on first?

In short, desertion is an automatic out, not an appeal.

If the throw was before the BR went to the dugout, it would be recognized as an advantageous fourth out. It's idiotic, but analogous to the play posted by Carl a few years ago where those in charge were presented with a scenario where the batter blows out an ankle and a non-forced runner is put out for a third out when the runner scores. The powers that be (I don't remember who, exactly, perhaps Fitzpatrick) said that you could, indeed throw to first and have that be an advantageous fourth out.

I'd be hard pressed to call the BR out for desertion, though, for failing to run to first AFTER a third out was recorded elsewhere, authoritative opinion be damned.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

If the throw was before the BR went to the dugout, it would be recognized as an advantageous fourth out. It's idiotic, but analogous to the play posted by Carl a few years ago where those in charge were presented with a scenario where the batter blows out an ankle and a non-forced runner is put out for a third out when the runner scores. The powers that be (I don't remember who, exactly, perhaps Fitzpatrick) said that you could, indeed throw to first and have that be an advantageous fourth out.

I agree, but in the situation you bring up, the throw precedes the desertion.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I'd be hard pressed to call the BR out for desertion, though, for failing to run to first AFTER a third out was recorded elsewhere, authoritative opinion be damned.

This is where I'm torn. On the one hand, the run precedes the third out. On the other, the BR never acquires first.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Matt

I agree, but in the situation you bring up, the throw precedes the desertion.

Sounds like that's the case in the OP, too. He's heading for the dugout when the throw is made. He doesn't desert on a batted ball until reaching the dugout (assuming nothing has changed), unlike the new rule where leaving the dirt circle on the uncaught third strike is evidence of desertion.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Matt

The defense cannot appeal BR. You can't appeal a runner at a base he never reached. The out is automatically called by the umpire.

If you say that the defense can appeal BR in this, then the flip side is that they would also have the choice not to. if that was the case, how exactly do you account for BR absent an appeal? He never reached first, yet was never put out. It is this contradiction that shows why this is not an appealable offense, but an automatic out.

To take it a step further, let's say that we have the same situation in the OP, but with no one out. The play happens the same way (touch of home, tag of R2, BR gives up.) Now there is one out, and BR is sitting in the dugout. If we use your logic, and the defense appeals the out, then we have two out. What happens if a pitch is thrown instead? BR was never put out, but he's not on base. Do you go and get BR out of the dugout and put him on first?

In short, desertion is an automatic out, not an appeal.

Matt, you are wrong.

[Rich Ives]

2008 BRD Section 3

You can appeal for the advantageous fourth out.

FED per Hopkins
OBR per Fitzpatrick