What to do with Runner??

[tibear]

Have an interesting question from another website: R2 with 2 outs. Grounder hit to F6 who throws to F3 for the apparent third out. R2 continue running through third and tags home without a throw (Why would F3 throw home once the third out is called??) Offensive manager comes out and talks with the BU about a pulled foot at first on the put out. After confering with PU, BU reverses his call and says that BR is safe on the pulled foot.

What do you do with R2?? Let the run score or put him back at third or even second??

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by tibear

Have an interesting question from another website: R2 with 2 outs. Grounder hit to F6 who throws to F3 for the apparent third out. R2 continue running through third and tags home without a throw (Why would F3 throw home once the third out is called??) Offensive manager comes out and talks with the BU about a pulled foot at first on the put out. After confering with PU, BU reverses his call and says that BR is safe on the pulled foot.

What do you do with R2?? Let the run score or put him back at third or even second??

Put him where you think he should be. 3rd base sounds reasonable to me. I assume R2 would be running no later than when F6 releases the throw to 1st. I don't think you can score him because BU's FU likely stopped F3 from throwing home (and caused R2 to continue home).

[Huskerblue]

You have to put the runner back on third. The umpire's call reversal put the defensive team at a disadvantage.

[tibear]

Originally Posted by Huskerblue

You have to put the runner back on third. The umpire's call reversal put the defensive team at a disadvantage.

Using that philosophy of an umpire putting a team at a disadvantage wouldn't it fly in the face of the follwing scenario that has been discussed at length: Bases loaded, 3 balls on the batter. Batter appears to check his swing and the PU calls a ball, as the runners are proceeding to the next base the catcher tags R3 and then appeals the check swing to see if the BU agrees with the PU call. (Granted any BU that calls a strike in this situation is stupid however, if the BU does call it a strike, everyone agreed that the runners were at risk of being tagged out.)

So in one situation (checked swing), an appeal clearly puts the defense at an advantage and the general consensus is that it is legal, yet the pulled foot situation in the OP seems to be gaining the opinion that the runner should be put back to third.

[dhargaman]

I know the title assumes a LOT!

In the situation posted in the beginning of this thread, I'd say put the runner at 3rd. Good chance he moves up on the throw to first, not so good that he scores if F3 is holding the ball.

However, on the other sit. brought up, bases loaded, 3 ball count, checked swing ruled strike on appeal, I think you gotta send the runners back unless there was an attempt to steal on the pitch. Reasoning: if they only moved up on the 'ball 4' call, your call put them in jeopardy. I think it's a lot easier to justify to the defensive coach 'look, you got a strike on the appeal, you're not getting a cheap out also' than to convince the offensive coach that he's not getting royally shafted!

Just my 2 (or 20) cents worth!!

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by tibear

Have an interesting question from another website: R2 with 2 outs. Grounder hit to F6 who throws to F3 for the apparent third out. R2 continue running through third and tags home without a throw (Why would F3 throw home once the third out is called??) Offensive manager comes out and talks with the BU about a pulled foot at first on the put out. After confering with PU, BU reverses his call and says that BR is safe on the pulled foot.

What do you do with R2?? Let the run score or put him back at third or even second??

Poor mechanics in this case. If BU on the play thought the foot was pulled he should ask the question and get an answer before making the call. If I don't ask the question in all liklihood (I'll never say never) I'm sticking with my call. Reason being my partner has all touches and tags at third. I can't even be certain he had a good look at first. Assuming I'm 100 percent certain I'm right or my partner is uncertain I'll go to my partner (no one is within earshot) I'll just tell my partner to nod his head yes. Offensive Coach is appeased I did check and we play on.

As an aside as base umpire I feel it's my responsibility to get pulled foot and swipe tags on my own. Assume a controversial play. I go to my partner based on his answer I make the call. If a s*** house breaks out who are they going after? My partner and not me. I don't think it's fair that my partner takes grief because I was a lazy a** on the play.

[Rich Ives]

On the check-swing ball play the runner is dead meat.


9.02(c) Comment: Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call is reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the plate umpire.
The ball is in play on appeal on a half swing.

[PeteBooth]

From many "moons ago" Carl Childress's infamous FAB V on calls that can legally be changed

The FAB 5 (When calls may be legally changed)

1. Half swing called a ball changed to strike. (OBR 9.02c CMTs 1, 2, 3)

2. Two umpires make opposite calls on the same play. (common sense: only one can be accepted)

3. An umpire misapplies a rule. (9.02b/c)

4. Home run changed to double, vice versa; fair to foul, vice versa on balls hit out of the park. (professional practice)

5. "Out" called on a tag play, but the ball falls free, and another umpire observes it. (JEA 9:15-16)

The Terrible Three (Three times a call CANNOT be legally changed after it's made)

1. Swipe tag
2. Force play (or play on BR at first)
3. Fielder on/off the bag

ANY call can be corrected:

Carl: "He's out!" Then, immediately: "No, no, no. Safe! The runner is safe!!" That's bad timing -- but it's legal.

I realize the aformentioned is outdated but that criteria used to be the "motto"

Now with TV, SLO Mo replays the motto is "get the call right" however, as in this OP even if you get the call right you are WRONG.

It is very difficult to change a call AFTERWARDS that involves continuous action because of this type situation. However, MLB already set a precedent concerning the Mets Braves game this year when they retroactively declared the ball dead at the point where the call was reversed. So today anything is possible.

I agree with the others. Put R2 on third base. Do not score the run.

Pete Booth