Missed base: opinions

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I agree.

The only caveat I have with play 1 is that the OP does not say whether the runner ever touched HP.

The OP says, "R3 slides past and misses the plate."

My intent was to say that the runner never touched the plate.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Rich]

Originally Posted by DG

Cite a rule or case play please.

Pick up a Jaksa/Roder manual and read for yourself.

Passing a missed base always removes the (immediate) force based simply on the rulebook. However, that doesn't mean there isn't opportunity to appeal. If the runner is trying to return, he needs to be tagged.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Pick up a Jaksa/Roder manual and read for yourself.

Passing a missed base always removes the (immediate) force based simply on the rulebook. However, that doesn't mean there isn't opportunity to appeal. If the runner is trying to return, he needs to be tagged.

I have researched this and there is some disagreement on this.

Let's assume OBR:

On a force play, a runner overslides a base and never touches it. The runner is tagged out trying to scramble back to the base. The force play is removed once the runner "passed" the base, the tag was a time play. That means that any runs that scored in the interim - count!

Can the defense now make an appeal that the runner missed the base for an "advantageous fourth out" in order to nullify the run?

On that there is disagreement!

* * *

It seems to me, from what I could gather, that under FED and NCAA, in the same situation - the defense could tag the base while the runner is still attempting to scramble back and appeal that the base was missed and gain the out. It is unique to OBR that the runner must be tagged on a force play once they have passed (and missed) the base.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Rich]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

I have researched this and there is some disagreement on this.

Let's assume OBR:

On a force play, a runner overslides a base and never touches it. The runner is tagged out trying to scramble back to the base. See the force play is removed once the runner "passed" the base, the tag was a time play. That means that any runs that scored in the interim - count!

Can the defense now make an appeal that the runner missed the base for an "advantageous fourth out" in order to nullify the run?

On that there is disagreement!

* * *

It seems to me, from what I could gather, that under FED and NCAA, in the same situation - the defense could tag the base while the runner is still attempting to scramble back and appeal that the base was missed and gain the out. It is unique to OBR that the runner must be tagged on a force play once they have passed (and missed) the base.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

I would allow the advantageous fourth out in all codes and take my chances with any protest committee. Why should the offense benefit from the (still) missed base?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I would allow the advantageous fourth out in all codes and take my chances with any protest committee. Why should the offense benefit from the (still) missed base?

I agree. This is a missed base appeal, and the runner was forced to the base. If that's the third/fourth out, no run will count.

[DG]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Pick up a Jaksa/Roder manual and read for yourself.

Passing a missed base always removes the (immediate) force based simply on the rulebook. However, that doesn't mean there isn't opportunity to appeal. If the runner is trying to return, he needs to be tagged.

I have a 2008 J/R. What page you reading from because I don't find your interp? A rule book reference would also be good.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by DG

I have a 2008 J/R. What page you reading from because I don't find your interp? A rule book reference would also be good.

I don't have a copy of J/R in front of me right now, but I have 2006 version of the BRD.

On p.15 (of the BRD) it cites from J/R saying, "If a suspect runner is tagged off base, ... a subsequent appeal of such runner's missed base is not allowed."

The BRD says this is on p.76 or J/R.

Further the BRD claims there is contradictory information as to what the rulebook says on this matter and what J/R says.

The PBUC suggests that a subsequent appeal is possible. J/R says it is not. The BRD recommends going with the PBUC ruling.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[DG]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

I don't have a copy of J/R in front of me right now, but I have 2006 version of the BRD.

On p.15 (of the BRD) it cites from J/R saying, "If a suspect runner is tagged off base, ... a subsequent appeal of such runner's missed base is not allowed."

The BRD says this is on p.76 or J/R.

Further the BRD claims there is contradictory information as to what the rulebook says on this matter and what J/R says.

The PBUC suggests that a subsequent appeal is possible. J/R says it is not. The BRD recommends going with the PBUC ruling.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

I don't have a 2006 BRD anymore, gave it away to a new umpire. The 2008 version on page 15 is talking about "last time by returns". However, the 2004 version of J/R I have does have the quote you mention from page 76, but this is related to tagging a runner off base in relaxed action, which is not the case under discussion.

The MLBUM is clear on runner who misses home and is on his way to dugout. Just tag home and appeal and he is out, but if he is actively returning you have to tag. It's not clear if this applies on a force play at home, case under discussion.

Still looking for definitive source to say runner must be tagged on a force play miss at home on a miss vs. just tag the plate and appeal.

[canadaump6]

Guys you have totally disregarded the research I did to help come up with answers to David's questions. The appeal during unrelaxed action I cited was from page 77 of the 2004 Jaksa/Roder book.

I researched the case plays partly to get a better understanding of the rules myself, but also to help someone else out. I would appreciate at least being acknowledged for helping out.

[mbyron]

Had a play last weekend: bases loaded, 2 outs. Batter strikes out on a pitch in the dirt, and starts to walk back to the dugout. F2 is standing there, with the ball on the ground, and nobody but me and my partner seem to know that the ball is live.

F2 picks up the ball and begins to roll it toward the mound. As he does so, he happens to step on HP. I say, "he's out!" and F2 whirls around like I'd stabbed him or something.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Had a play last weekend: bases loaded, 2 outs. Batter strikes out on a pitch in the dirt, and starts to walk back to the dugout. F2 is standing there, with the ball on the ground, and nobody but me and my partner seem to know that the ball is live.

F2 picks up the ball and begins to roll it toward the mound. As he does so, he happens to step on HP. I say, "he's out!" and F2 whirls around like I'd stabbed him or something.

Under what rules code and how far away did the batter get?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by DG

I don't have a 2006 BRD anymore, gave it away to a new umpire. The 2008 version on page 15 is talking about "last time by returns". However, the 2004 version of J/R I have does have the quote you mention from page 76, but this is related to tagging a runner off base in relaxed action, which is not the case under discussion.

The MLBUM is clear on runner who misses home and is on his way to dugout. Just tag home and appeal and he is out, but if he is actively returning you have to tag. It's not clear if this applies on a force play at home, case under discussion.

Still looking for definitive source to say runner must be tagged on a force play miss at home on a miss vs. just tag the plate and appeal.

Once a runner passes a base, the force is removed. I don't think that is in dispute. It takes an appeal to put the runner out at this point.

Your question then (if I understand correctly) is whether a tag of the plate constitutes a proper appeal or whether the runner must be tagged if he's trying to return. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'd give citations, but my books are in boxes. I'm moving in 19 days.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Under what rules code and how far away did the batter get?

FED, and about 6 feet from the plate.

[canadaump6]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Had a play last weekend: bases loaded, 2 outs. Batter strikes out on a pitch in the dirt, and starts to walk back to the dugout. F2 is standing there, with the ball on the ground, and nobody but me and my partner seem to know that the ball is live.

F2 picks up the ball and begins to roll it toward the mound. As he does so, he happens to step on HP. I say, "he's out!" and F2 whirls around like I'd stabbed him or something.

Sounds like a good call. Jaksa/Roder does not cite a regular force play as an appeal.

[DG]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Once a runner passes a base, the force is removed. I don't think that is in dispute. It takes an appeal to put the runner out at this point.

Your question then (if I understand correctly) is whether a tag of the plate constitutes a proper appeal or whether the runner must be tagged if he's trying to return. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'd give citations, but my books are in boxes. I'm moving in 19 days.

NCAA rules (original question was about NCAA), 8-1a: PENALTY- For failing to touch a base advancing or returning: The runner is out if touched by the ball in the hands of a fielder before returning to each untouched base. If the base missed was one to which the runner was forced, the runner is out when tagged or if the ball is held by a fielder on any base the runner failed to touch (including home plate).

Now maybe it is semantics whether the force is off due to a miss but the fundamental question was does the runner have to be tagged if he missed home when forced there and according to the the written rule in NCAA he does not have to be tagged. Sounds to me like the force is still on.

I see nothing in J/R opposite to NCAA written rule and nothing in BRD so it seems the same in all rules.

You can't get an out without an appeal. A tag of the the runner is an appeal and a tag of the base is an appeal. The question was whether he had to be tagged if he was trying to return. A tag is not required.