Missed base: opinions

[David Emerling]

I saw this play in an adult game played under NCAA rules. It got me thinking ...

PLAY #1: Bases loaded, 1 out. Grounder to F5. His throw short hops the catcher causing the ball to squirt away about 5 feet. R3 slides past and misses the plate. The runner attempts to crawl back to the plate but the catcher has retrieved the ball and he (the catcher) dives and tags the base with the ball before the runner could return.

RULING?

And this all made me think of another play ...

PLAY #2: R3, 2 outs. Batter hits a slow roller to F6. R3 was off on contact and there is no play on him at the plate. The throw to first is late but the BR misses the bag. The umpire rules him safe. But then, F3 with possession of the ball and his foot still on the bag says, "He missed the base."

Now what?

Does F3 have to tag the BR? In either case, does R3 score?

Would like to have some opinions on this. I don't really care about the NCAA ruling. You can answer it under any set of rules you like. I suspect they will all be the same anyway.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

PLAY #1: Bases loaded, 1 out. Grounder to F5. His throw short hops the catcher causing the ball to squirt away about 5 feet. R3 slides past and misses the plate. The runner attempts to crawl back to the plate but the catcher has retrieved the ball and he (the catcher) dives and tags the base with the ball before the runner could return.

RULING?

And this all made me think of another play ...

PLAY #2: R3, 2 outs. Batter hits a slow roller to F6. R3 was off on contact and there is no play on him at the plate. The throw to first is late but the BR misses the bag. The umpire rules him safe. But then, F3 with possession of the ball and his foot still on the bag says, "He missed the base."

Now what?

Does F3 have to tag the BR? In either case, does R3 score?

Play 1: Because the runner never abandoned the base path, this is all continuous action. By my reading of the book, the only thing I can say that supports this is that he is not out under any provisions made in the book. Perhaps others will have access to a caseplay... but if the runner got back to the plate before the tag was applied to him, he is safe. Now, if it was a force play, and the tag of the base was an appeal that he missed it, we have a different story... which is what you hint at in your second play.

Play 2: We have an out at first base by appeal... and the run doesn't count because the 3rd out was made on the B/R before he obtained first base...

Others can follow with casebook references... I'm going back to the NBA game

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Play 1: Because the runner never abandoned the base path, this is all continuous action. By my reading of the book, the only thing I can say that supports this is that he is not out under any provisions made in the book. Perhaps others will have access to a caseplay... but if the runner got back to the plate before the tag was applied to him, he is safe.

So, you're saying that if the missed base was a force play, the runner can either be tagged OR the base touched - even if there is an ensuing scramble back to the base on the part of the runner?

Now, if it was a force play,

And it was - the bases were loaded with one out.

and the tag of the base was an appeal that he missed it, we have a different story... which is what you hint at in your second play.

Everything was continuous action. There was a sense of urgency on the part of both the catcher and runner. Both realized that he was not tagged and that the plate was not touched. The catcher chose to tag the base instead of the runner.

The umpires ruled the runner safe - claiming he needed to be tagged.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Rich]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

I saw this play in an adult game played under NCAA rules. It got me thinking ...

PLAY #1: Bases loaded, 1 out. Grounder to F5. His throw short hops the catcher causing the ball to squirt away about 5 feet. R3 slides past and misses the plate. The runner attempts to crawl back to the plate but the catcher has retrieved the ball and he (the catcher) dives and tags the base with the ball before the runner could return.

RULING?

And this all made me think of another play ...

PLAY #2: R3, 2 outs. Batter hits a slow roller to F6. R3 was off on contact and there is no play on him at the plate. The throw to first is late but the BR misses the bag. The umpire rules him safe. But then, F3 with possession of the ball and his foot still on the bag says, "He missed the base."

Now what?

Does F3 have to tag the BR? In either case, does R3 score?

Would like to have some opinions on this. I don't really care about the NCAA ruling. You can answer it under any set of rules you like. I suspect they will all be the same anyway.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

I usually don't answer without rules or other cites as backup, but I'm actually watching an NBA game for the first time in years (the Phillies played this afternoon):

In play 1, sliding past the plate removed the force. Unrelaxed action requires a tag on the runner trying to get back to the plate. Safe.

In play 2, the runner is out on the live ball appeal on the tag of the base. Since it's the BR and the third out at first base, no run scores.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

In play 1, sliding past the plate removed the force. Unrelaxed action requires a tag on the runner trying to get back to the plate. Safe.

In play 2, the runner is out on the live ball appeal on the tag of the base. Since it's the BR and the third out at first base, no run scores.

I agree with your assessment in Play #1. That's what I've always been taught.

But, if you apply that philosophy to Play #2, would you say that if the BR quickly realized that he missed the base and had to quickly touch it that that would qualify as "unrelaxed" action, thus necessitating F3 tag him?

That's the reason I created Play #2, in anticipation of the answer to Play #1. Doesn't your ruling on Play #2 contradict your ruling in Play #1 if the BR attempts to immediately correct his mistake (i.e. unrelaxed action)?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[btdt]

Appeals ARE timing plays
If play two is an appeal, it is a timing play
Which means run scores

If it isn't an appeal but an every day force play
The run doesn't score

Is it an appeal or not? That is the question

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by btdt

Appeals ARE timing plays
If play two is an appeal, it is a timing play
Which means run scores

If it isn't an appeal but an every day force play
The run doesn't score

Is it an appeal or not? That is the question

It is an appeal, and the run does not score (see post #2).
The batter is never forced at 1st or any other base.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by btdt

Appeals ARE timing plays
If play two is an appeal, it is a timing play
Which means run scores

If it isn't an appeal but an every day force play
The run doesn't score

Is it an appeal or not? That is the question

Appeals certainly are timing plays but, if the runner on whom a successful appeal is made was forced to that base, no run can score if it is the third out.

There are two aspects of play #2 that intrigue me, however. 1) Whether the run scores or not is important, for sure, 2) but I also want to resolve whether F3 has to tag the runner or not.

If the answer is, no - then how do you balance that with Play #1 where there seems to be a consensus that this forced runner must be tagged?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[TussAgee11]

David...

In your first post I over read the fact that the bases were loaded. That led me to believe that we had a tag play at the plate. From there, I assumed we never had "relaxed action"; I envisioned a play in which the runner, in an attempt to miss the tag, over slid the base and tried to scramble back in to the plate.

My apologies. Disregard it, I was thinking another sitch.

I'll agree with Rich on play 2 though. Pretty clear cut... a force is not removed on a missed base.

We debated a similar play 1 several weeks ago... in 2 separate threads - very in depth. Here is the link...

Appeal questions

and

(FED) Missing a base DOES NOT remove the force

These two threads confused me so much I won't even go into it... it is late.

Perhaps tomorrow I will dig through and construct a post with more rule references.

Tata...

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

David...

In your first post I over read the fact that the bases were loaded. That led me to believe that we had a tag play at the plate. From there, I assumed we never had "relaxed action"; I envisioned a play in which the runner, in an attempt to miss the tag, over slid the base and tried to scramble back in to the plate.

My apologies. Disregard it, I was thinking another sitch.

I'll agree with Rich on play 2 though. Pretty clear cut... a force is not removed on a missed base.

We debated a similar play 1 several weeks ago... in 2 separate threads - very in depth. Here is the link...

Appeal questions

and

(FED) Missing a base DOES NOT remove the force

These two threads confused me so much I won't even go into it... it is late.

Perhaps tomorrow I will dig through and construct a post with more rule references.

Tata...

Thanks for the links to those discussions. Very instructive. But there wasn't much consensus there.

Now I have so many questions.

SITUATION: R3, 2 outs. Batter hits a slow roller to F6. R3 goes on contact and scores easily. The throw to F3 is late but the BR misses the bag as he goes flying by.

QUESTIONS:

#1: BR overruns the base and does not indicate by his actions that he has missed the base. Nonetheless, F3 keeps his foot on the base and tells the umpire "He missed the bag!"

Is the runner out on appeal?

Does the run count?

#2: Same as #1 accept the F3 tags the BR.

Is the runner out on appeal?

Does the run count?

* * * *

Also, I'm still not sure about my play where R3 (with the bases loaded) slides past home, missing it, and the catcher retrieves the loose ball and tags the plate while the runner is scrambling back to the plate.

Is the runner out on appeal?

* * * *

NEW PLAY: Bases loaded, 2 outs. A hard smash is hit toward F5. He dives and knocks the hot grounder down. The only possible play is on R2. But R2 beats any attempt to force him out but, as he slides by the bag, he completely misses it. F5 recovers the loose ball and tags the base before the runner, attempting to scramble back. can get back to the base.

Is the runner out?

Is this an appeal or a force?

Does the run count?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[canadaump6]

I'll give this one a go. Correct me if I'm wrong.

R3, 2 outs. Batter hits a slow roller to F6. R3 goes on contact and scores easily. The throw to F3 is late but the BR misses the bag as he goes flying by.

QUESTIONS:

#1: BR overruns the base and does not indicate by his actions that he has missed the base. Nonetheless, F3 keeps his foot on the base and tells the umpire "He missed the bag!"

Is the runner out on appeal?

Does the run count?

#2: Same as #1 accept the F3 tags the BR.

Is the runner out on appeal?

Does the run count?

In situation 1, the batter-runner was forced to acquire first base. Due to the appeal being upheld, he did not acquire the base he was forced to advance to. The run does not count.

In situation 2, the batter is out and the run again does not count because he did not acquire first base. It doesn't matter if he tags the base or tags the runner- the important thing to remember is that he did not acquire the base he was forced to advance to.

Also, I'm still not sure about my play where R3 (with the bases loaded) slides past home, missing it, and the catcher retrieves the loose ball and tags the plate while the runner is scrambling back to the plate.

Is the runner out on appeal?

The runner is safe because action was unrelaxed. From Jaksa/Roder: A missed base appeal of first (overrun) or home occurs when: a) action is relaxed and the allegedly missed base or the suspect runner is tagged or
b) action is unrelaxed and the suspect runner is tagged off base.

In the situation you describe, action was unrelaxed because the runner was scrambling to get back to home and the ball is in the vicinity of the area.

NEW PLAY: Bases loaded, 2 outs. A hard smash is hit toward F5. He dives and knocks the hot grounder down. The only possible play is on R2. But R2 beats any attempt to force him out but, as he slides by the bag, he completely misses it. F5 recovers the loose ball and tags the base before the runner, attempting to scramble back. can get back to the base.

Is the runner out?

Is this an appeal or a force?

Does the run count?

This is not an appeal play, and not an out. From Jaksa/Roder: A missed base appeal of first (rounded), second, or third occurs only when action is relaxed and: a) the allegedly missed base is tagged or b) the suspect runner is tagged on another base.

Here is a case play from J/R that is similar to the one you described: R1,R3, two outs, hit and run. Batter singles to right field and R1 passes but does not touch second base. The second baseman recognizes the miss of 2nd, as does the runner, who scrambles back towards second. The second baseman glove the right fielder's throw and tags second base a step ahead of R1's return. Because action is unrelaxed, there is not an appeal. R1 is out only if tagged off base.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I usually don't answer without rules or other cites as backup, but I'm actually watching an NBA game for the first time in years (the Phillies played this afternoon):

In play 1, sliding past the plate removed the force. Unrelaxed action requires a tag on the runner trying to get back to the plate. Safe.

In play 2, the runner is out on the live ball appeal on the tag of the base. Since it's the BR and the third out at first base, no run scores.

I agree.

The only caveat I have with play 1 is that the OP does not say whether the runner ever touched HP.

For play 2, although this is an appeal play, it is not a time play due to the language of OBR 4.09 (and parallel passages): no run shall score if the 3rd out is made by BR before acquiring 1B.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Also, I'm still not sure about my play where R3 (with the bases loaded) slides past home, missing it, and the catcher retrieves the loose ball and tags the plate while the runner is scrambling back to the plate.

Is the runner out on appeal?

No, at least not if we're talking OBR and you believe J/R. This is "unrelaxed" action, since the runner is scrambling back. He must be tagged to be put out.

Originally Posted by David Emerling

NEW PLAY: Bases loaded, 2 outs. A hard smash is hit toward F5. He dives and knocks the hot grounder down. The only possible play is on R2. But R2 beats any attempt to force him out but, as he slides by the bag, he completely misses it. F5 recovers the loose ball and tags the base before the runner, attempting to scramble back, can get back to the base.

Same answer. Since the runner is past the base, this is a time play.

[David Emerling]

PLAY: R1 and R3, two outs. Grounder in the hole on the left side. F6 fields the ball and his only play is at 2nd. His throw is in the dirt but blocked by F4. The ball bounces about 5 feet away from the bag. R1 slides past the bag, never touching it, and is now a considerable distance off the bag. Both the runner and fielder scramble. The fielder gains control of the ball and tags R1 out before he can get back.

The run counts - for now.

Now the defense wants to appeal that R1 missed the base. They are seeking an "advantageous fourth out" in order to nullify the run. They don't want the tag out - they want the missed base appeal out.

They tag the base and the umpire calls R1 out, on appeal, and the run is nullfied.

Agreed?

I'm wondering if anybody in this forum does any NCAA umpiring? I'm curious as to whether a fielder can immediately tag the base after a runner slides past, without touching, a base on a force play?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[DG]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

In play 1, sliding past the plate removed the force. Unrelaxed action requires a tag on the runner trying to get back to the plate. Safe.

Cite a rule or case play please.