Rulebook 8.05 Comment

[canadaump6]

8.05 Comment: b) With a runner on first base the pitcher may make a complete turn, without hesitating toward first, and throw to second. This is not to be interpreted as throwing to an unnoccupied base.

Some umpires in my association weren't sure what this wording implies. Does it mean that the pitcher can start his motion and wheel to second regardless of whether R1 is stealing? Or does R1 have to be stealing before he throws to second base?

One would think that everytime there is R1, 2 out and a 3-2 count, the pitcher would simply do his leg kick, then whirl around and throw out R1 at 2nd, but I never see this done.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

8.05 Comment: b) With a runner on first base the pitcher may make a complete turn, without hesitating toward first, and throw to second. This is not to be interpreted as throwing to an unnoccupied base.

Some umpires in my association weren't sure what this wording implies. Does it mean that the pitcher can start his motion and wheel to second regardless of whether R1 is stealing? Or does R1 have to be stealing before he throws to second base?

One would think that everytime there is R1, 2 out and a 3-2 count, the pitcher would simply do his leg kick, then whirl around and throw out R1 at 2nd, but I never see this done.

The runner must have started an attempt toward second base, whether or not he returns to first is irrelevant.

Base runners should not leave on a 3-2 count with two outs until they are certain that the pitcher has committed to home plate. The majority of baserunners won't fall for any shenanigans from the pitcher.

When the pitcher moves forward toward the plate with his kick leg, he can no longer make that move to second base. He must lift his non pivot leg and immediately do one of the following 3 things: a) spin around toward second, b) step and throw to first, or c) pitch the ball. If he hesitates with his leg in the air or first steps toward first, he then cannot throw or feint to second.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

8.05 Comment: b) With a runner on first base the pitcher may make a complete turn, without hesitating toward first, and throw to second. This is not to be interpreted as throwing to an unnoccupied base.

Some umpires in my association weren't sure what this wording implies. Does it mean that the pitcher can start his motion and wheel to second regardless of whether R1 is stealing? Or does R1 have to be stealing before he throws to second base?

One would think that every time there is R1, 2 out and a 3-2 count, the pitcher would simply do his leg kick, then whirl around and throw out R1 at 2nd, but I never see this done.

Think of it a F1 making a legal move to 1st, R1 takes off as F1 is in the process. As long as F1 continues to follow R1 around without any stop or hesitation, F1 may make a complete turn to 2nd & fire. The rule was really designed for the RHP and it really looks awkward when attempted. In almost 30 years, I have yet to have a RHP perform this move without me balking him. They always seem to have to hesitate half way through the move. The LHP has no problem with this because he is facing R1 all the time, so to spin with him is no problem.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

8.05 Comment: b) With a runner on first base the pitcher may make a complete turn, without hesitating toward first, and throw to second. This is not to be interpreted as throwing to an unnoccupied base.

Some umpires in my association weren't sure what this wording implies. Does it mean that the pitcher can start his motion and wheel to second regardless of whether R1 is stealing? Or does R1 have to be stealing before he throws to second base?

One would think that everytime there is R1, 2 out and a 3-2 count, the pitcher would simply do his leg kick, then whirl around and throw out R1 at 2nd, but I never see this done.

Suppose this CMT wasn't in the book. Then take this play: R1 only. F1 in set. R1 breaks for second (early). F1 turns counterclockwise past first and throws to second to retire R1. (The move F1 makes is the same as the "outside" move he might make if there was an R2, and is otherwise a legal move.).

WITHOUT the comment, too many players, coaches and even umpires would say that "F1 made a move toward first (the counterclockwise movement) and didn't throw to first, so it's a balk."

The CMT makes it clear that as long as there's not a step (or other "hesitation") to first as part of this move, the move is legal.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The runner must have started an attempt toward second base, whether or not he returns to first is irrelevant.

But the comment mentions only that there is a runner on first and not that the runner needs to have started an attempt toward second base.

To me, the wording implies that so long as there is a runner at 1B, the pitcher may throw to 2B without the penalty for throwing to an unoccupied base.

What am I missing?

[mbyron]

You're missing the meaning of "unoccupied base" and the only reasonable interpretation of the rule, which has already been posted.

[canadaump6]

Thanks for the clarification guys.

While we're on the subject, I had always thought that with R1, a right handed pitcher had to step directly towards first base to try a pickoff, and bringing the free foot up committed him to throwing to home plate. If he brings his free foot straight up, is it now not impossible for the pitcher to step towards first and throw without first stepping towards home plate?

[TussAgee11]

not impossible... although its normally followed by a step of the pivot foot in order to gain balance...

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

Thanks for the clarification guys.

While we're on the subject, I had always thought that with R1, a right handed pitcher had to step directly towards first base to try a pickoff, and bringing the free foot up committed him to throwing to home plate. If he brings his free foot straight up, is it now not impossible for the pitcher to step towards first and throw without first stepping towards home plate?

Old School rule of thumb:
"If I see the underside of your free foot, you'd better go to the plate!" Pitchers are notorious for raising their foot nice and high when they want to pitch. So when they attempt to fool the runner, they usually mess up in this regard. That is why I taught my son a good slide step move.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

Thanks for the clarification guys.

While we're on the subject, I had always thought that with R1, a right handed pitcher had to step directly towards first base to try a pickoff, and bringing the free foot up committed him to throwing to home plate. If he brings his free foot straight up, is it now not impossible for the pitcher to step towards first and throw without first stepping towards home plate?

This comes up on the boards from time to time. If the foot or knee moves toward third or towards the "balance point" (coach speak), then F1 is committed to throw to the base being faced, home or second -- he can't throw to the base behind him (first, for a RH pitcher).

[MrUmpire]

I see ID theft is again popular on this site. I guess when "canadaump6_ " didn't work out, another target was needed.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

not impossible... although its normally followed by a step of the pivot foot in order to gain balance...

My answer was the physiology Our Canadian friend did not ask if it was legal or not, just if it was possible.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

I see ID theft is again popular on this site. I guess when "canadaump6_ " didn't work out, another target was needed.

Thank you. We'll look at it.

[canadaump6]

I'm still baffled as to why I don't see the balance point, then spin and throw to second base move ever performed. If a right handed pitcher goes into his balance point and hears someone say "he's going", he can easily spin and throw to second to get the runner.

[canadaump6]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

I'm still baffled as to why I don't see the balance point, then spin and throw to second base move ever performed. If a right handed pitcher goes into his balance point and hears someone say "he's going", he can easily spin and throw to second to get the runner.

Any takers?