Assignor Nightmares

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Ozzy from the OP



I have underlined the relevant passage from the OP

The defense was not even thinking about appealing otherwise instead of F1 getting ready to pitch F3 would be saying "throw me the ball the runner missed the bag"

At least the way I am reading it it is APPARENT that absent the announcement from the PA announcer F1 would have simply pitched the ball to B1.

You say "show me the rule"

There is a rule against the use of REPLAY equipment. The PA announcer said
The telecast clearly shows I interpret that to mean that the PA announcer is saying Replay shows that B1 missed first base so you better appeal.

In summary: The defense was not going to appeal no matter what the DM / players / Crowd said afterwards otherwise they would have done so. They had plenty of time. Heck F1 was getting ready to pitch and as mentioned if the PA announcer had not opened his mouth F1 would have pitched the ball meaning "off bets off" as far as an appeal goes.

Therefore IMO you do have a rule to use for denying the appeal. Also, even if there was no rule, IMO the defense had no intentions of appealing until they heard the PA announcer.

This was indeed a tough day for the men in blue but in reading Peter's response I don't know how the EJ's could have been avoided. R2/F1 jawing at each other is not the umpires fault and the behavior of the DM is also not their fault. The DM was trying to pull a "fast one"

Pete Booth

Pete, you make a good point about the PA announcer using a replay of some sort. I have no argument there. That part of the equation has been removed by ejecting the PA announcer first. It is very important to make this the second move (the first is to call TIME) as this shows the announcer's input into the game is a complete violation and is dealt with on the spot.

Now you quoted HHH's post where he says that it was apparent that the defense was not going to appeal. It may seem this way but really, how can you be sure? You know that the defensive manager is going to insist that he saw the runner miss the base (he's be a fool if he didn't)! Just as a Judge on the bench would not try to assume what is in someone's head, neither should we as umpires.

Mbyron made a good point in that the offense made the first mistake by failing to touch the base. Granted, we assume that the runner has touched the base (even when we see him miss it) but that is how it has to be. If properly appealed, we reverse our call from safe to an out.

Finally, to go back to the use of replay, I believe that the rule is referring to the defense using the replay. If this were the case, the appeal would not be allowed at all by rule. But it was the PA announcer that used the replay. Not unlike the father who says "Coach, he missed 1st base, I have it on tape". As long as the defense does not view the replay, they haven't violated the rule. All the manager has to say is "Yeah, I heard the guy but I was going to appeal anyway.".

I still say that if the defense puts forth an appeal in this case, we have to honor it.

[socalblue1]

Ozzy,

Based on the rules, I think you have the best solution. No matter what we do here someone is likely to protest, so why not make the best decision we can based on the rule book?

Take the protest & let the league figure this out. I suspect the end result would be uphold the appeal & a long suspension or termination of at least the PA announcer and perhaps other booth staff.

[Rich Ives]

"Just as a Judge on the bench would not try to assume what is in someone's head, neither should we as umpires." - Ozzy


C'mon Ozzy - you do that every day when judging intent or the lack thereof. It comes with the territory.

[waltjp]

I don't think I've ever been suprised by an appeal. You can usually hear the players and coaches talking about it as soon as playing action stops. Also, keep in mind, with a dead ball appeal there's no need for the pitcher to throw over to the base - he, or anyone else can simply request the appeal.

--------------------
FED 8-2 Penalty

(clipped)
A dead-ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with or without the ball by verbally stating that the runner missed the base or left the base too early.
--------------------

I wasn't there but it seems pretty obvious from the OP that there was no intent for the defense to appeal the missed base until the PA announcer chimed in. For that matter you might conclude that the PA announcer only added his 2 cents because he felt his team had missed something. There must have been some time elapsed if the announcer had a chance to view the replay.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

"Just as a Judge on the bench would not try to assume what is in someone's head, neither should we as umpires." - Ozzy


C'mon Ozzy - you do that every day when judging intent or the lack thereof. It comes with the territory.

It's not the same here, Rich. You know full well (from a coach's point of view), all you have to do is say, "Mario, I was going to appeal anyway!". So how can I stop you from appealing?

Please, I am not trying to be difficult here, Rich. Let's run through this:
I've just ejected the PA Announcer and Pete wants to make an appeal that your runner missed the base. Unless you can come up with something that we can stand firmly on Rich, I am going to allow Pete to appeal your runner!

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

It's not the same here, Rich. You know full well (from a coach's point of view), all you have to do is say, "Mario, I was going to appeal anyway!". So how can I stop you from appealing?

Please, I am not trying to be difficult here, Rich. Let's run through this:
I've just ejected the PA Announcer and Pete wants to make an appeal that your runner missed the base. Unless you can come up with something that we can stand firmly on Rich, I am going to allow Pete to appeal your runner!

Yes I would say "I was going to appeal anyhow".

It may or not be true of course.

If all the team's actions indicate they didn't have a clue until the announcement you should be giving it some thought. I have yet to see a team treat an appeal as an afterthought. They're too anxious for outs and killing runs.

[PeteBooth]

Ozzy I already gave you a rule - The use of Replay.

I realize we were NOT there but from YOUR experience when the defense WANTS to appeal it's obvious. The coach is either screaming or one of the players is screaming.

Re-Read the thread. I am strictly going by what Peter posted. The Defense had NO intention of appealing. if they did they would have appealed IMMEDIATELY. Heck F1 was ready to pitch to the next batter.

Now you have a PA announcer that for all practical Purposes said: According to replay we have indistbutable evidence that the runner missed first base.

The runner is deemed to have touched the base unless PROPERLY appealed.

How can you grant the appeal when the defense had no intentions of appealing until they heard the PA announcer.


Also, do not equate what the PA announcer said to some Parent in the stands. Many times parents are screaming in the stands and the coach simply ignores them anyway.

Pete Booth

[David B]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Ozzy I already gave you a rule - The use of Replay.

I realize we were NOT there but from YOUR experience when the defense WANTS to appeal it's obvious. The coach is either screaming or one of the players is screaming.

Re-Read the thread. I am strictly going by what Peter posted. The Defense had NO intention of appealing. if they did they would have appealed IMMEDIATELY. Heck F1 was ready to pitch to the next batter.

Now you have a PA announcer that for all practical Purposes said: According to replay we have indistbutable evidence that the runner missed first base.

The runner is deemed to have touched the base unless PROPERLY appealed.

How can you grant the appeal when the defense had no intentions of appealing until they heard the PA announcer.


Also, do not equate what the PA announcer said to some Parent in the stands. Many times parents are screaming in the stands and the coach simply ignores them anyway.

Pete Booth

Pete,

I think you're trying to find a way to go against the rules. By rule, if they want to appeal they can. What happens off the field doesn't dictate a change from that.

Now we can eject anyone from the park, (we just get our administrators to handle it all the time with fans, etc. ), but I don't see where the defensive team can be penalized for something they didn't do.

Now if the guys had called the coach in the dugout or something and we had proof of it, but the rule about replay is pretty much clear, guys on the field of play, etc.,

At least that's how I see it,

Thanks
David

My take is this:

If we can eject the announcer because he is "team staff", then it stands to figure that the defensive team in this case did in fact obtain the information illegally. Thus, the announcer is ejected, and you can refuse the appeal because it is not a "legal" appeal.

Seems tidy enough.

The dad in the stand stuff is something totally different. Dad is not "team staff", and we have no jurisdiction over what they do. But we do have jurisdiction over the announcer and his actions! In my opinion, the announcer using replay equipment is no different than the coach himself using it!

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by David B

Pete,

I think you're trying to find a way to go against the rules. By rule, if they want to appeal they can. What happens off the field doesn't dictate a change from that.

I am not going against the rules or using CSFP I am going BY the rule.

As REI said and I agree with him, The PA announcer using replay equipment is the same as if the Coach had used it hence it is against the rules.

The Defense ON THEIR OWN has the right to appeal not from the use of video equipment.

As I stated from my and I bet other's experiences as well, when the Defense wants to appeal it's immediate.

I am going STRICTLY by what Peter wrote. From his description of the events it's apparent that the DEFENSE had no intention of appealing. F1 IN FACT was ready to pitch to the next batter.

Also, Parents from the stands are NOT the same as a PA announcer.

Perhaps with this EVENT a new rule or interpretation will come out.

IMO I am NOT eventing a rule simply to come up with the desired outcome. You cannot use REPLAY equipment

Side Note to Peter

Peter is it possible to have one of those umpires in the game Post either themselves or through you if they Judged that absent the PA announcer the Defense had any intention of appealing. From what you describe it doesn't sound so.

Thanks

Pete Booth

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Ozzy I already gave you a rule - The use of Replay.

I realize we were NOT there but from YOUR experience when the defense WANTS to appeal it's obvious. The coach is either screaming or one of the players is screaming.

Re-Read the thread. I am strictly going by what Peter posted. The Defense had NO intention of appealing. if they did they would have appealed IMMEDIATELY. Heck F1 was ready to pitch to the next batter.

Now you have a PA announcer that for all practical Purposes said: According to replay we have indistbutable evidence that the runner missed first base.

The runner is deemed to have touched the base unless PROPERLY appealed.

How can you grant the appeal when the defense had no intentions of appealing until they heard the PA announcer.


Also, do not equate what the PA announcer said to some Parent in the stands. Many times parents are screaming in the stands and the coach simply ignores them anyway.

Pete Booth

I hear you, Pete! And I understand you would use the "replay" to not allow the appeal. I also am glad that we heard from Rich Ives in that he felt that he would in fact state that he was going to appeal anyway.

So here is where we stand:

• You would deny the appeal and the game would go to protest by the defense.
• I would allow the appeal and allow the game to go to protest by the offense.

So how about we do this? You still have contacts up in MLB. Fire off the OP with our two rulings and protests. I really would like to see what the "Big Guys" would do with this. I'll try to do the same at the clinic I am assisting in this weekend if the weather holds. Let's see what we come up with.

[dash_riprock]

This is a FED rules OP. The penalty for use of replay equipment is spelled out in 3-3-1-f. For the first offense, warn the coach. For the next offense, eject the coach. There is no other penalty.

I can see bending the rules a bit to dump the PA jerk. But if you disallow the appeal because it was obtained "illegally" (and there's nothing in the rules about that), you are going to lose the protest for misapplying the rule.

[PeteBooth]

Ozzy FWIW

This was a FED game so under the OLD FED appeal rule this would have been a non issue. One of the reasons I personally liked the OLD FED rule was for situations such as this.

Under the old FED appeal rule when playing action was over as in the OP the BU would have simply declared the runner out.

All the shenanigans that followed , AD stopping the game, Police escort etc. most likely would not have happened.

There still might have been some EJ's but not the "hoopla" that followed.

Pete Booth

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

So how about we do this? You still have contacts up in MLB. Fire off the OP with our two rulings and protests. I really would like to see what the "Big Guys" would do with this. I'll try to do the same at the clinic I am assisting in this weekend if the weather holds. Let's see what we come up with.

In checking with my contacts in pro ball and the NCAA, I've been told that the appeal stands and that regardless of whether the P.A. announcer is dismissed from the game, higher ups would deal with him.