Overriding Your Partner??

[rngrck]

This is a judgement call and wouldn't appreciate PU calling me in to discuss unless I as the BU requested it. The only time I confer with my partner is over a rule interpretation or when asked for help. Lets call the play, calm the coach down and move on.

[cshs81]

Originally Posted by rngrck

This is a judgement call and wouldn't appreciate PU calling me in to discuss unless I as the BU requested it. The only time I confer with my partner is over a rule interpretation or when asked for help. Lets call the play, calm the coach down and move on.

I assumed that would be how most umpires would handle it. I felt bad for the field ump having his partner questioning his call and caving into the pressure from the coach and fans.

I can't imagine what the conversation was between the 2 umps.

[CO ump]

Many times partners will have some sign they give to their partner in certain situations to let them know they may have pertinent information that may be useful.
When given this sign the calling ump may or may not choose to get it or use it.
For a PU to force a conference on a judgement call made by U1 is uncalled for and absolutely inappropriate.

Another disturbing part of the OP is this:
It's one thing to be in B or C position, miss a pulled foot and feel a need to ask PU for help.
It's quite another to rule and signal pulled foot, make a safe call and then change the call.
You either saw the pulled foot or you didn't. If you indicate pulled foot then you darn well have better seen the pulled foot. If you saw the pulled foot there is no way PU should be able to change your mind nor should he even try.

I too believe it is bad decorum, and CONTRARY TO THE RULE BOOK for the non-calling partner to question his partners call without first being asked. I have seen several plays already this year where my partner should have asked me for help, and I would have given him a call opposit of his, but he didn't, and I get to work on keeping a straight face!

I also agree that you don't neccissarily, as the base umpire, NEED to make a call and wait for the coach for you to ask for help. I also think it would be a sign of weakness to go for help too often, and this could call into question your competency on the field.

The way I cover the pulled foot/swipe tag at 1st issue in pre-games:

If you/I are unsure, and there is reasonable doubt if the fielder stayed on the bag/runner was not tagged, ASK IMMEDIATELY. Don't guess! Ask for help.

If you/I are pretty sure you seen it, and there isn't reasonable doubt if the fielder stayed on the bad/runner was not tagged, MAKE THE CALL. Use good timing and sell it appropriately. I might say something to the effect of (as I am signaling the out) "Yes, he stayed on the bag", or of course "On the tag" as a way to sell the call to the nearby 1st base coach. If he is off the bag, use the "Safe! Off the bag!" signal. No tag, I might say "No tag!" really loud while making my safe signal and shaking my head no.

Since adopting the above, I have had MUCH less questioning about my calls.

But, coaches are going to disagree. Fine. If a coach asks me to ask for help on a pulled foot/swipe tag at first after the fact, I am going to go talk to my partner about it. Before doing so, I will tell the coach "I am going to talk to myu partner and make sure I have all the info coach. It will still be my call", and I WILL NOT let the coach go to talk to my partner about the call after we confer.

I think it is important though to lose the idea that you HAVE to make a call. If you have a doubt, ASK FOR HELP! Trust me, it only adds credibility to the job you do. Even the coach that it goes against has a hard time faulting you for asking for help. COACHES ARE THE ONES THAT INITIATED THIS WHOLE "ASK FOR HELP" MECHANIC WE NOW HAVE!!! It pleases them when you do.

In the current culture of umpiring, you don't have to live and die by your call like you did the old days (thank god!). Take advantage of this and work as a team.

In no other sport where there is an officiating crew have I seen officials who are so pig headed about sticking with their call as umpires are. It is changing, and I think it is a good change. But, there are still a lot of guys who have the old "That is my call, I am sticking to it" mentality, or think it is a show of weakness to not make a call first and wait to see if there is an arguement. To me, that is hogwash umpiring, and I feel uncomfortable with partners who think this way. It is not on-board with "Get the call right" mentality. That way of thinking is "Let's see if I can get away with an out".

Man up and be willing to ask for help with you have a reasonable doubt about the play. But first, remember to see if your partner was in any position to actually help! God knows, I have seen too many plate guys not be where they should be on plays at first.

Originally Posted by CO ump

Many times partners will have some sign they give to their partner in certain situations to let them know they may have pertinent information that may be useful.
When given this sign the calling ump may or may not choose to get it or use it.
For a PU to force a conference on a judgement call made by U1 is uncalled for and absolutely inappropriate.

Another disturbing part of the OP is this:
It's one thing to be in B or C position, miss a pulled foot and feel a need to ask PU for help.
It's quite another to rule and signal pulled foot, make a safe call and then change the call.
You either saw the pulled foot or you didn't. If you indicate pulled foot then you darn well have better seen the pulled foot. If you saw the pulled foot there is no way PU should be able to change your mind nor should he even try.

I agree. But, sometimes, you just have to humor the coach.

You could possibly go to your partner and say "Just shake your head yes to everything".

One time, while I was an Assistant Referee in a soccer game, the center referee came up to me, after he made a controversial call that resulted in a Penalty Kick, and asked "You like cake don't you?". I shook my head yes, and he said "Thanks. Good job". I didn't understanding until he explained later "I just needed to make sure that it appeared you seen the same thing I did". It was funny as hell, and a very creative way to support his call! It worked because the coach was yelling and screaming that it wasn't a foul until the very second I shook my head yes. Immediately, the coach quit complaining and never said another word. Nice!

[tayjaid]

Last night I worked a game with a partner I had never met. ( I was filling in ) As he got his equipment on we disscussed coverages and situations. He said "I will not overrule you unless I am 150% sure". Third inning, play at first, throw is up 1st base line towards home. Firstbaseman was clearly off the base. I could not tell if there was a tag. (I was in C) I simply looked at my partner and said "Do we have a tag?" He replied "yes I have a tag" I call out on the tag. No complaints, no groans from the crowd.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by tayjaid

He said "I will not overrule you unless I am 150% sure".

To which my reply would have been, "I hope you mean you'll never overrule me. You may give me additional information that may persuade me to change my call, but you won't overrule me, right?"

This is a BIG misconception that coaches and managers have. Let's make sure we have it right.

[DG]

I can count on one hand the number of times I have been asked for help on a pulled foot at 1b. I always go over this in pre-game but I am rarely needed. If you come to me I assume you have an out if the foot was on the bag or you would have called safe due to runner beating the throw. If you come to me after making a call because a coach complained I will tell you what I saw and it is up to you if you want to change the call, but I will advise against because once you start this both coaches will be like a jack in the box on every close call. If it was something like a dropped ball that you may not have seen I will advise you to change the call or if the call involved a rule misinterpretation I will advise you to change the call. But just judgement on a banger, or a pulled foot, these are best left alone, if you have already made a call.

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by tayjaid

Last night I worked a game with a partner I had never met. ( I was filling in ) As he got his equipment on we disscussed coverages and situations. He said "I will not overrule you unless I am 150% sure". Third inning, play at first, throw is up 1st base line towards home. Firstbaseman was clearly off the base. I could not tell if there was a tag. (I was in C) I simply looked at my partner and said "Do we have a tag?" He replied "yes I have a tag" I call out on the tag. No complaints, no groans from the crowd.

He said "I will not overrule you unless I am 150% sure".

"And I'm 200% sure that if you overrule me, you'll finish the rest of the game alone".

Bob

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by rei

One time, while I was an Assistant Referee in a soccer game, the center referee came up to me, after he made a controversial call that resulted in a Penalty Kick, and asked "You like cake don't you?".

This is great as long as your partner wasn't that one strange kid you knew in third grade who didn't like cake!

[RPatrino]

Couple of things on this post. If you clearly saw a pulled foot at first, why would you over-rule and call an out? Now, for some reason, we have had a very spirited debate ever since the winter meetings about how to handle a situation like this. My take is, ask for help BEFORE making the safe/out call and make only ONE call. However, we are being told, make the call you see and then sort it out.

This post seems sort of backwards, though, almost like asking for help after you call a strike on a check swing. "Blue, get help on that, i think he held up". Maybe its just me.

[UMP25]

Bob,

We had this same "debate" during our NCAA meetings in Cleveland this year. I vehemently disagreed that the base ump should make a call, then call time, then consult, then change the call. How could anyone alive possibly believe this is better than immediately going to your partner for help BEFORE making a call and getting one, fluid call?

I'll tell you this: when I used to do it this "old guard" way--making a call then having the typical committee meeting then reversing the call--I'd have an argument every frickin' time. Ever since going to the "getting help before making the call" situation, I have yet to have one argument.

[RPatrino]

UMP25, we are in 100% agreement.

My experience has been that the problems come from making 2 calls, which believe it or not, causes BOTH teams to question you, VS. having perhaps NO argument if we consult and get the call right the first time.

I, however, am done arguing about this. I did that back in Feb. LOL

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UMP25

Bob,

We had this same "debate" during our NCAA meetings in Cleveland this year. I vehemently disagreed that the base ump should make a call, then call time, then consult, then change the call. How could anyone alive possibly believe this is better than immediately going to your partner for help BEFORE making a call and getting one, fluid call?

Just to speak to this narrow question: the rationale might be that (a) it's BU's call and he should make it, (b) by making an initial call you have a "default" call to go to in case nobody has better information (c) it's a similar principle to replay in the NFL, for instance: you need additional info to overrule the initial "call on the field."

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by UMP25

Bob,

We had this same "debate" during our NCAA meetings in Cleveland this year. I vehemently disagreed that the base ump should make a call, then call time, then consult, then change the call. How could anyone alive possibly believe this is better than immediately going to your partner for help BEFORE making a call and getting one, fluid call?

Was the question of multiple runners brought up?

R1/R2 2 outs 3-2 count

That means runners off with the pitch. You are in "C" B1 hits ball in the hole between 1st and second. F4 makes a nice play but his throw causes F3 to stretch.

You in "C" make the out call. R1 is almost to third base and R2 is about to score. If B1 would have ruled safe, R2 would have easily scored and R1 easiley to third base. Upon hearing the OUT call, the runners head back to their respective dugouts and get ready for the next inning.

Now the OM comes out and asks you to check with your partner and as outlined above, the following takes place.

You check with the PU and the PU says that F3's foot was CLEARLY off the bag but since it was not his call initilaly said nothing (and rightly so) until asked.

Now the call is changed. What do you do with the R1/R2?

Another twist R2 was a slow runner, and would have been a dead-duck at the plate had the BU ruled safe but because it was out number 3. F3 simply headed back to his dug-out.

That's why I agree the proper mechanic should be

If you as BU are unsure ask your partner immediately so that the flow of the game is not interrupted.

It's very difficult to change calls "after the fact" when we have multiple runners.

If we go by MLB it appears that whenever a call effecting multiple runners is indeeed changed, then the ball is retro-actively dead at the point of the mis-application or blown call.

Pete Booth