FED Going to Mouth

[Lapopez]

In the "Preseason Guide" for baseball it is clearly stated "With a runner or runners on base, a pitcher who has engaged the pitcher's plate and goes to his mouth has committed a balk."

Case book 6.2.1 Situation B clearly indicates a pitcher has balked if while touching the pitcher's plate in the set position with runners on base he places his hand on his mouth and distinctly wipes off his pitching hand prior to touching the ball.

This year the rule book has as a "Point of Emphasis" going to the mouth and clearly says "going to the mouth while in contact with the pitcher's plate is a balk, not because the pitcher goes to his mouth, but because the action simulates the start of the pitching motion."

I've got the above ammunition to back up my calling of a balk in the above situations. Where is the justification in the rules book though? The newly "clarified" shaded text in the Penalty of 6-2-1e doesn't support a balk. I suspect your answer will be that the "simulates the start if the pitching motion" interpretation along with "continue the motion without interruption..." and "go to the set positon without interruption..." blah blah are all the reasons I need but I am not satisfied. Going to the mouth doesn't look like the start of the pitching motion to me. Is it sufficient for something to be clearly stated in the case book but not in the rules book to justify a call?

[dash_riprock]

Yes.

From the Case Book (Foreword p.2)

Interpretations: Rulings in this book are approved by the NFHS Baseball Rules Committee. They are official for situations as outlined.

[johnnyg08]

I've got the above ammunition to back up my calling of a balk

I wouldn't be too jacked up about calling that play a balk just because it's in the rules...but as you said, you now have a "point of emphasis" to back you in enforcing that rule...

You are correct and I agree...that "going to the mouth" is not the reason it's a balk...but can simulate the beginning of the pitching motion...so I would use that as your test for a calling the balk or warning F1...

I've heard other sides too that say...if you're going to warn, now you have to warn everybody, otherwise, you have now subjected yourself to a protestable situation if you warn one team and balk the other...

food for thought.

[Tim C]

I would also like to comment that the rules interpretations posted on the NFHS website and the overhead presentation are also considered "official interpretations" by the National Federation of State High Schools.

Regards,

Tim Christensen
NFHS publication Committee

"High School Today"

[waltjp]

Lapopez, let me reword your situation a bit:

F1, while touching the pitcher's plate in the set position with runners on base he places his hand on his mouth and distinctly wipes off his pitching hand prior to touching the ball. separates his hands to adjust his cap.

Is this a balk and why?

[johnnyg08]

separating your hands simulates the start of the pitching motion...

my answer, yes, balk. Unless the cap adjustment is very early on and considered preliminary movement

[Lapopez]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Lapopez, let me reword your situation a bit:

F1, while touching the pitcher's plate in the set position with runners on base he places his hand on his mouth and distinctly wipes off his pitching hand prior to touching the ball. separates his hands to adjust his cap.

Is this a balk and why?

So what you are asking is that the pitcher is not only pitching from the set position, he has already come to a stop with both hands together, and then separates his hands to adjust his cap. The fact that he has already come to a stop is the key point and my original question did not assume this. Even if the pitcher hadn't come to a stop, as I understand it, the key point is if the pitcher touches his mouth while engaged with the rubber, even before the stop, it is a balk with runners on base. To answer your question, any separation after the stop for anything other than a pitch or pick off I would call a balk since the motion would indicate either of those two things.

[GarthB]

The FED online clinic makes it clear that FED considers going to the mouth while in contact with the rubber is a balk for going to the mouth while in contact with the rubber, not for simulating a pitching motion.

I don't know why wording wasn't added or clarified in 6-2-4 to reflect this.

Among the POE in the rulebook, the Casebook and the online clinic, we appear to have three different wordings regarding this rule. Since we need to pass a quiz on the online clinc with a score of 100% to be "Certified", we have gone with the clinc interpretation.

While FED has had its share of rulebook issues, they do have an advantage over OBR. In FED we have access to a process to fix the mistakes. The OBR has had over 200 mistakes for years.

I'm having dinner with the Washington chief FED rules interpreter this evening. I'm typing up my proposal for next year to take with me.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Lapopez

So what you are asking is that the pitcher is not only pitching from the set position, he has already come to a stop with both hands together

Yes, exactly what I'm saying. The pitcher is in the set position when he brings his hands together and makes a discernible stop. Ref: 6-1-3

FED 6-1-3 For the set position, the pitcher shall have the ball in either his gloved hand of his pitching hand. His pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back. Before starting his delivery, he shall stand with his entire non-pivot foot in front of a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate and with his entire pivot foot in contact with or directly in front of the pitcher's plate. He shall go the the set position without interruption and in one continuous motion. He shall come to a complete and discernible stop (a change of direction is not considered an acceptable stop) with the ball in both hands in front of the body and his glove at or below his chin. ...

[Lapopez]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Yes, exactly what I'm saying. The pitcher is in the set position when he brings his hands together and makes a discernible stop. Ref: 6-1-3

FED 6-1-3 For the set position, the pitcher shall have the ball in either his gloved hand of his pitching hand. His pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back. Before starting his delivery, he shall stand with his entire non-pivot foot in front of a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate and with his entire pivot foot in contact with or directly in front of the pitcher's plate. He shall go the the set position without interruption and in one continuous motion. He shall come to a complete and discernible stop (a change of direction is not considered an acceptable stop) with the ball in both hands in front of the body and his glove at or below his chin. ...

For what you are saying, I think the rule book already clearly covers in 6-2-4e. I don't know what you are trying to emphasize in 6-1-3 quote above. Prior to bringing the hands together and making a discernible stop, are you going to balk a pitcher for raising his hand and adjusting his cap, scratching his cheek, swatting a bug away? I say no. I don't think it violates 6-2-4d. But if he goes to his mouth, it's a balk. That's not clear in the rule book to me. It is in the case plays so I'll call it, but I'd prefer it to be clear in the rules as well.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Lapopez

For what you are saying, I think the rule book already clearly covers in 6-2-4e. I don't know what you are trying to emphasize in 6-1-3 quote above. Prior to bringing the hands together and making a discernible stop, are you going to balk a pitcher for raising his hand and adjusting his cap, scratching his cheek, swatting a bug away? I say no. I don't think it violates 6-2-4d. But if he goes to his mouth, it's a balk. That's not clear in the rule book to me. It is in the case plays so I'll call it, but I'd prefer it to be clear in the rules as well.

If the pitcher is in the set position, as defined in my earlier post, and separates his hands it's a balk. It doesn't matter if he goes to his mouth, adjusts his cap or scratches his arse. The act of separating his hands preceeds all other actions and that is the balk, not what follows.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Lapopez

For what you are saying, I think the rule book already clearly covers in 6-2-4e. I don't know what you are trying to emphasize in 6-1-3 quote above. Prior to bringing the hands together and making a discernible stop, are you going to balk a pitcher for raising his hand and adjusting his cap, scratching his cheek, swatting a bug away? I say no. I don't think it violates 6-2-4d. But if he goes to his mouth, it's a balk. That's not clear in the rule book to me. It is in the case plays so I'll call it, but I'd prefer it to be clear in the rules as well.

By rule, these are all balks. How strictly it's called will vary from area to area..

[mbyron]

I'm not Bob, but how about this. You need 6-1-3, "He shall go to the set position without interruption and in one continuous motion. . . . Natural premilinary motions such as only one stretch may be made."

You're concerned with the time before F1 comes set, so his hands should still be separated. F1 is allowed one motion to come set. Going to the mouth does not constitute the allowed stretch or any "natural preliminary motion," so he's starting and stopping.

[Lapopez]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I'm not Bob, but how about this. You need 6-1-3, "He shall go to the set position without interruption and in one continuous motion. . . . Natural premilinary motions such as only one stretch may be made."

You're concerned with the time before F1 comes set, so his hands should still be separated. F1 is allowed one motion to come set. Going to the mouth does not constitute the allowed stretch or any "natural preliminary motion," so he's starting and stopping.

I’m sorry to keep beating this but I honestly do not agree. You’ve quoted a “what to do” part of the rule. I’m going to argue that you haven’t given the pitcher the chance to go to the set position without interruption and in one continuous motion. He still may do just that. You skipped over, “He shall come to a complete and discernible stop…” which comes before the “Natural preliminary motions…” quote. I’m still concerned with the actions before the discernible stop and I don’t feel that statement has gone into effect yet. The “what not to do” part of the rule is covered in 6-2-4d. The point of this whole thread for me is that I would prefer the going-to-the-mouth-balk be expressed in this part of the rule because all those movements I mentioned a few posts back, in my opinion, do not constitute “a movement of any part of the body such as he habitually uses in his delivery.” Again, since the case book says it’s a balk, and, for at least this year, it’s a POE and clearly stated there, I’ll call it--to the mouth only though.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Lapopez

I’m sorry to keep beating this but I honestly do not agree. You’ve quoted a “what to do” part of the rule. I’m going to argue that you haven’t given the pitcher the chance to go to the set position without interruption and in one continuous motion. He still may do just that. You skipped over, “He shall come to a complete and discernible stop…” which comes before the “Natural preliminary motions…” quote. I’m still concerned with the actions before the discernible stop and I don’t feel that statement has gone into effect yet. The “what not to do” part of the rule is covered in 6-2-4d. The point of this whole thread for me is that I would prefer the going-to-the-mouth-balk be expressed in this part of the rule because all those movements I mentioned a few posts back, in my opinion, do not constitute “a movement of any part of the body such as he habitually uses in his delivery.” Again, since the case book says it’s a balk, and, for at least this year, it’s a POE and clearly stated there, I’ll call it--to the mouth only though.

sounds like to me you are confusing FED with OBR rules.

FED has made it very clear that the pitcher must be off the rubber to do all of the above as you mentioned several posts ago.

I don't have my case book but I'm sure there is a case play to cover this.

I'm sure someone will post it before I am able to check tonight, but if not, then I will find the exact situation for you.

Thanks
David