85% missed this one

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by lawump

As one member in our association argued in defense of his "true" answer (and he argued a lot more eloquently than I can write):

He said look at the meat of the question: "a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder".

He said that is true.

When told by another association member that the answer is "false" because a runner must touch a base after the ball has been TOUCHED by a fielder, he said, "that's not what the question is asking. A runner does not have to re-touch his base after it is touched, he only has to re-touch if it is caught. Meaning, that if the ball is touched by a fielder and then dropped, the runner is not liable to be put out for failing to re-touch. It is the act of the fielder making a legal catch that imposes upon the runner the requirement to retouch his base.

"Thus, a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder is true, because if the fielder does not catch the ball there cannot be a requirement to retouch, period."

However, I also see the other side. The question says "AFTER the batted ball has been caught..." and that IS false if you look at it from the point of view that the runner does not have to wait on the bag until, as JM points out, the fielder completes his catch with a voluntary release.

This is a BS question. As I said, 85% of our association got it wrong. Despite that, our association had the highest average grade of any association in the Palmetto State with an average score of 92 (we have 50+ members)...so, some of our guys know how to take this test (but apparently not this question).

Oh well.

Show him 8-2-4. It's pretty straight forward. The test is not worded lilke the book, making the test statement incorrect.

LDUB is right, he's only debating half of the statement.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

Originally Posted by ManInBlue
I first thought "true" - but this is essentially the exact verbiage from the rule book with "touched" changed to "caught."

Didn't seem like a trick question to me. Simply testing the knowledge of the rules verbiage.

"If a fair or foul batted ball is caught, other than a foul tip, each base runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been touched by a fielder." - my emphasis - Rule 8-2-4

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

Show him 8-2-4. It's pretty straight forward. The test is not worded lilke the book, making the test statement incorrect.

LDUB is right, he's only debating half of the statement.

Written again and again.

Rule 7.08 - Any runner is out when -
(d) failing to retouch the base after a fair or foul fly ball is legally caught before that runner or the base is legally tagged by a fielder. ... This is an appeal play

Mr. Umpire, I appeal to your best judgment, that the answer is actually true, as witnessed by 85% of the umpires.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by SAump

Written again and again.

Rule 7.08 - Any runner is out when -
(d) failing to retouch the base after a fair or foul fly ball is legally caught before that runner or the base is legally tagged by a fielder. ... This is an appeal play

Mr. Umpire, I appeal to your best judgment, that the answer is actually true, as witnessed by 85% of the umpires.

Well, since you're going to throw an OBR rule cite into a FED thread (hey, that rhymes!), I'll help you out..........


Official Notes - Case Book - Comments: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground.

Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball.

A fielder may reach over a fence, railing, rope or other line of demarcation to make a catch. He may jump on top of a railing, or canvas that may be in foul ground. No interference should be allowed when a fielder reaches over a fence, railing, rope or into a stand to catch a ball. He does so at his own risk. If a fielder, attempting a catch at the edge of the dugout, is "held up" and kept from an apparent fall by a player or players of either team and the catch is made, it shall be allowed.



Tim.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAump

Written again and again.

Rule 7.08 - Any runner is out when -
(d) failing to retouch the base after a fair or foul fly ball is legally caught before that runner or the base is legally tagged by a fielder. ... This is an appeal play

Where can I find 7.08(d) in the FED rules book?

[dash_riprock]

8.2 PENALTY (ART. 1-5) Page 49 of the rule book.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Where can I find 7.08(d) in the FED rules book?

While I realize that rule differences exist among various levels of baseball, I would not qualify this question as an actual rule difference.
I argue that the moment a first fielder touches the ball usually takes place at the same time the ball was caught, not juggled, nor tipped.
Now, if we decide that a catch is not possible upon first touch, I suppose there is some other possible rule modification in order here.
If there is nothing in the question to indicate a ball is juggled or tipped, then a runner may leave as soon as the ball is caught.

I understand that the FED rule requires a runner touch the base after the fly ball is first touched by a fielder.
Somebody at the FED level is trying very hard to make their rule interpretation look different too.
I agree that FED 8-4-2 interpretation is different than OBR 7.08d in a literal sense.
But from what I have retouched upon so far; it aint so, Joe.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAump

While I realize that rule differences exist among various levels of baseball, I would not qualify this question as an actual rule difference.
I argue that the moment a first fielder touches the ball usually takes place at the same time the ball was caught, not juggled, nor tipped.
Now, if we decide that a catch is not possible upon first touch, I suppose there is some other possible rule modification in order here.
If there is nothing in the question to indicate a ball is juggled or tipped, then a runner may leave as soon as the ball is caught.

I understand that the FED rule requires a runner touch the base after the fly ball is first touched by a fielder.
Somebody at the FED level is trying very hard to make their rule interpretation look different too.
I agree that FED 8-4-2 interpretation is different than OBR 7.08d in a literal sense.
But from what I have retouched upon so far; it aint so, Joe.

The rule is the same in all codes -- a runner can leave when the ball is first touched.

A catch happens (is confirmed) some discernable time after the ball is touched. Even on a liner to F6, I'd guess that it's .5 seconds or so.

[Tim C]

"Originally Posted by SAump

The legal requirement to demonstrate voluntary and intentional release requires another hand to enter the glove to remove the ball shortly after the catch has already been made."


There is no such rule or interpretation under any code and in any official document.

This statement is not only inaccurate it is simply made up balderdash.

Regards,

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Tim C

"Originally Posted by SAump
The legal requirement to demonstrate voluntary and intentional release requires another hand to enter the glove to remove the ball shortly after the catch has already been made."

There is no such rule or interpretation under any code and in any official document.

This statement is not only inaccurate ir is simply bad up balderdash.

Regards,

"The legal requirement to demonstrate voluntary and intentional release requires another hand to enter the glove to remove the ball shortly after the catch has already been made."

It has been documented in this thread that VaIR is necessary to complete a legal catch.
What am I missing?

[dash_riprock]

The release has to be voluntary and intentional, if there is a release. Obtaining secure possession doesn't necessarily entail a release of the ball, and a voluntary release doesn't necessarily entail another hand in the glove.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by SAump

This statement is only accurate when a fielder flips the ball out of his glove.
It is not even a proper description of voluntary release, since a voluntary release entails another hand in {or near} the glove.
But I know it's contradicting time. You win.

So, if an outfielder catches a fly ball for the third out, jogs to the infield and drops the ball on the mound from his glove, you don't have voluntary release?


Tim.

[Interested Ump]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

So, if an outfielder catches a fly ball for the third out, jogs to the infield and drops the ball on the mound from his glove, you don't have voluntary release?


Tim.

The length from behind 2B, where many CF in LL under 11 catch fly balls, to the mound, is so short that it is very possible that control was not maintained.

No catch.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Interested Ump

The length from behind 2B, where many CF in LL under 11 catch fly balls, to the mound, is so short that it is very possible that control was not maintained.

No catch.

I haven't worked an 11U game in quite some time, but I'd imagine that this situation at that level would allow the fielder at least several steps after catching the ball before he reached the mound. Have you had a protest lodged for kicking this call?


Tim.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by Interested Ump

Tim BigUmp56, the length from behind 2B, where many CF in LL under 11 catch fly balls, to the mound, is so short that it is very possible that control was not maintained.

No catch.

How would you know? You haven't called baby ball in decades.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

So, if an outfielder catches a fly ball for the third out, jogs to the infield and drops the ball on the mound from his glove, you don't have voluntary release?
Tim.

Again, a fielder may flip the ball out of his glove.