missed tag play

[Blue19]

R1, ground ball to 2nd baseman. He tags runner, I call him out, then an overthrow to 1st (ball still in play) and BR reaches 2nd. R1 claims he was never tagged, so wanting to get it right b/c in all honesty I didn’t clearly see it, I ask the PU what he saw and he says there was never a tag. So I call the runner back out and put him on 3rd b/c that’s where he would have ended up on the overthrow to 1st. of course the defense isn’t happy, but their main claim was that the runners should be placed on 1st and 2nd, not 2nd and 3rd b/c the instant I called R1 out it changed the play. Meaning, had I called R1 “SAFE – NO TAG”, then the defense might have tried to get him on the force at 2nd. Even though it was a bang bang attempt at a double play turn, and on top of that, that by the time I would have said “SAFE – NO TAG” the throw probably would have already been on it’s way to 1st to retire BR, meaning it probably would NOT have altered the play too much had I got the call right in the first place, I thought the defense had a valid point. I kept the runners on 2nd and 3rd, but I promised them an answer if i see them again. Your opinions:
on top of that, a quick side question, when is it appropriate or necessary to go to your partner for help?

thanks

[DG]

Originally posted by Blue19
R1, ground ball to 2nd baseman. He tags runner, I call him out, then an overthrow to 1st (ball still in play) and BR reaches 2nd. R1 claims he was never tagged, so wanting to get it right b/c in all honesty I didn’t clearly see it, I ask the PU what he saw and he says there was never a tag. So I call the runner back out and put him on 3rd b/c that’s where he would have ended up on the overthrow to 1st. of course the defense isn’t happy, but their main claim was that the runners should be placed on 1st and 2nd, not 2nd and 3rd b/c the instant I called R1 out it changed the play. Meaning, had I called R1 “SAFE – NO TAG”, then the defense might have tried to get him on the force at 2nd. Even though it was a bang bang attempt at a double play turn, and on top of that, that by the time I would have said “SAFE – NO TAG” the throw probably would have already been on it’s way to 1st to retire BR, meaning it probably would NOT have altered the play too much had I got the call right in the first place, I thought the defense had a valid point. I kept the runners on 2nd and 3rd, but I promised them an answer if i see them again. Your opinions:
on top of that, a quick side question, when is it appropriate or necessary to go to your partner for help?

thanks

If I call a runner out in this situation it's because I saw a tag. I don't know how PU has a better view than I do, so I would never ask. He's out. Now if you were not sure, why call him out?

It is appropriate, but rare, to go to PU on a swipe tag at a play at 1B, where you are not sure. But not after you call an out. An out call says "I am sure".

[Blue19]

in addition...is this bad umpiring. please be honest, dont worry, i can take the heat.

[Blue19]

DG - its not often but it happens that we cant see everything and we have to use our best judgement. in this case the obvious call appeared to be 'out' b/c the 2nd baseman went right at him. whether he nicked him or not was very tough to see so i went with pure probability. better out then safe on a play like that...i think

[DG]

Originally posted by Blue19
DG - its not often but it happens that we cant see everything and we have to use our best judgement. in this case the obvious call appeared to be 'out' b/c the 2nd baseman went right at him. whether he nicked him or not was very tough to see so i went with pure probability. better out then safe on a play like that...i think

Whatever senses you use, once you call him out, he is out, and don't invole the PU. It's bad umpiring to ask the PU for help on a call at 2B. He does not have a better view. Make the call and take whatever heat comes your way for those that don't agree.

[cbfoulds]

Was this, dare I ask: LL?
Were you, perhaps, outside the base path; maybe busting to move inside [wrong mechanics]& got caught looking up the backside of the play?

IF this was 90' baseball, and you started inside in B; how in the name of Abner Doubleday could you NOT see this better than the PU?

EVEN on a LL field, you have GOT to be 60-90 feet closer to this play than your partner, and unless you did something really boneheaded, you should not have a problem w/ the angle on this kind of play. The "sometimes we can't see everything" is a cop-out: what ELSE did you have to look at on this play?

Speaking "big-boy ball" here, I [BU]would NEVER go to my PU for "help" on a call at second. If my [BU] partner, for some unknowable reason, were to ask me [PU] for help: I'd tell him what, if anything I saw, but it would be prefaced with: "Jeez, man: I'm 120 feet away from that! What did you see?" And unless he tells me he had some kinda TIA and blacked out momentarily, I'm STONGLY encouraging him to stick w/ whatever he's already called; 'cause unless it's the kind of gross miss where even the 2d base fielder's Dad agrees he failed to tag the runner, "getting this one right" is gonna cost more than it's likely to be worth.

[Blue19]

ok ok. i was trying to keep it simple and giving the basics of the play b/c it was slightly more complicated.

what really happened was that i was in C position...might have been 1st and 2nd or 1st and 3rd...cant remember right now. in any case, I called out R1 for being out of the baseline b/c thats what i thought I saw based on the field layout etc., (obvioulsy i wasnt in the basepath so I had to make that judgment from an angle )and as i said i didnt clearly see a tag or no tag. after the play, when i went to get a closer look at the grass and basepath and their layout, i determined he wasnt out of the baseline based on from where i remembered R1 taking his steps to 2nd when trying to avoid the tag. so i went to PU to ask if we should do anything and through the course of the quick meeting he told me the tag was never put on. so then i HAD to reverse my call. not that it changes the situation too much, but i hope it clears up a little bit of why this play looks so bad. sorry for the confusion, but as for that part of the question i will take DG's advice the best...make the call and stick with it.


essentially though, i'm really asking about whether i put the runners in thier proper spots or not based on the call reversal...

and on that note, like before, what do you do if you dont get a good look at a play and you know you need help from your partner (when possible) but the ball is still live with other things going on and you cant really make a sound safe or out call? you cant just let a runner run around the bases and determine later what to do..can you? I know its infrequent, but it happens. is it maybe an unspoken rule not to go to your partner and just make a call to your best ability?

[jicecone]

Blue19,

You, just screwed the whole play and call. Suck it up and go on, it will happen again.

Now how to improve.

1. If you were in the "C" position, there was no reason that with a few steps you could not have been in the "B" and saw this play better. Little more hustle.

2. There are times to get help from your partner and times you eat the call. This one should have been eaten. You probably made the call too fast to begin with and then was caught with your pants down. DON'T HURRY YOUR CALLS. Generally, (about 99%),if a runner is passing a fielder with the ball in possession, and the fielder makes almost any effort to tag the runner, R1 is out. If the fielder has to go a long way , then you have the potential of a mess. Get into position to see this.

The reply is, "Coach in my opinion there was a tag."

The baseline was established the minute the fielder had the ball, it is irrelavant of the fields configuration. When the fielder has the ball and is waiting to make a tag, the baseline , is a straight line between wherever R1 is and the base. Again if the fielder makes a decent effort to tag, call out R1.

GOOD Hustle and experience will get you into an advantageous position to make the right call, almost always.
Just as it will help in deciding if you need help from your partner. There shoud have been NO reason that you coudn't have made the call in this situation, swallow your pride and go on.

Now correcting the situation, this is the officials judgement to rectify a situation, in which his call put the runner in jeapordy.

Again, this was what you are getting paid for, get into position and make the call and I mean this in a helpful way.

[Bfair]

Good response by Jicone, but something else to consider......

Typically the runner from 1B is following the basepath of the field to 2B.
The fielder has priority in fielding the batted ball. So if F4 came into that basepath to setup to glove the ball, then R1 is required by rule to avoid interfering with F4. Therefore, R1 may be altering his basepath before the ball is gloved in order to avoid the collision course with F4. Grant R1 a little extra leeway in your judgment IF that's the case. Don't be too quick to call the basepath violation if the ball is fielded as a "banger" tag (as you described) AND the fielder was directly in R1's normal basepath. The runner is allowed an additional 3 ft. of alteration from his location at the time the tag attempt. If the ball was fielded behind the basepath of the field, it's likely R1 made no initial alteration in his basepath as that would only slow down his efforts to safely reach 2B.

Still, it's YOUR judgment.
There's no reason to believe PU would have had a better angle to see this play better than you (as may be the case when you ask PU for help on a swipe tag down the 1B line).

Many plays where a call is reversed have no continuing play afterward. While it's important to attempt to get the call correct, remember that when continuing play does occur it may be difficult to reverse a decision. Take that into account when seeking help that may reverse your decision.

While you may or may not have had a blown call here, it doesn't sound like you had an "obviously" blown call. It seems moreso a call of judgment as to how far R1 left the line, and there's no reason to believe U1 had a better angle or better judgment than you.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Blue19

R1, ground ball to 2nd baseman. He tags runner, I call him out, then an overthrow to 1st (ball still in play) and BR reaches 2nd. R1 claims he was never tagged, so wanting to get it right b/c in all honesty I didn’t clearly see it, I ask the PU what he saw and he says there was never a tag.

First thing you need to learn is Make your own calls. You are in "B" and the PU is some 75 - 80 ft. away. This is your call all the way.

If you start asking for help on this play what are you going to do the rest of the game. If there is a steal attempt, and you call runner out, but runner and coach think that the fielder missed the tag are you constantly going to ask for help from the PU?

Once you start asking for help on calls that belong to you get ready for a looong game. In addition you can't keep hanging your partner out to dry.

You need to MAKE the call, stick with it and learn from it.

BTW, your thread falls under the category of the "cardinal Sin" of umpiring.

Pete Booth

[mick]

Originally posted by PeteBooth
BTW, your thread falls under the category of the "cardinal Sin" of umpiring.

Pete,
What does this mean?
Thanks.
mick

[mcrowder]

Blue, I think you just made it worse.

There's no way you could go look at the configuration of the field after the fact and redetermine if the runner went more than 3 feet out of his own basepath to avoid a tag. The basePATH is not the baseLINE - it is determined by the point at which the runner is at the time the tag is being attempted and the base. The config of the field is completely irrelevant.

Also - I think I can forgive a missed tag call being changed after discussion with partner - you can be straightlined in any tag situation regardless of how perfect your mechanics are, and if you are straightlined, partner almost definely has SOME angle, even if from 120 feet away (although I will quibble that if you didn't SEE a tag, default to a safe call - which could be changed if you request help from partner and he saw a tag... don't default to an OUT call and ask partner if he DIDN'T see a tag).

But a call of out of the baseline can't be straightlined - you're calling him out for where he goes, and DAMN well better see it clearly to call it. There's no way PU had a better view or angle on an out of baseline call.

[Blue19]

ok, points very well taken, thank you.

the only problem with the tag was that it was attempted to my right (the first base side) and the fielder of course was right behind the baserunner and the runner did a quick jump step and kind of arched forward to get out of the way so I'm not sure how i could see that tag/no tag. mechanics on where to position for that, especially coming from C position? as we very well know, fielders are prone to use those phantom tags.

in addition, please give me your input on whether or not I placed the runners on the right bases after the call reversal. b/c of the reversal, should the runners have gone back to 1st and 2nd b/c essentially I altered the play by calling the runner out, or b/c of the overthrow and BR going to 2nd, does that force R1 to 3rd after he gets put back to the bases?
thanks again

[LMan]

if there was just R1 as in the original sitch, why were you not in the "B" position to start with? That ends all the "how can I see a tag on the 1B-2B baseline from C?" discussion....

besides, if you are in C with R1, how can you call a pickoff attempt?

[Edited by LMan on Jun 6th, 2005 at 01:28 PM]

[Jerry]

I think you've already got your answer to the first dilemma. Don't do THAT again!

As for placement of runners after you corrected the erroneous call . . . put 'em where they should be, absent the wrong call. Use the argument to the offensive coach, "Hey coach, you should be happy you've got two runners at all! All I'm giving him (the runner heading to 2nd) is 2nd base. Let's play ball."

Another thing to keep in mind . . . the 2nd baseman certainly knew he missed the tag; didn't he? If so . . . he could have thrown to 2nd base for the force anyway; regardless of what YOU called. Certainly don't let the defense bully you into placing runners where it's to THEIR advantage. They should have made the play obvious enough so an umpire doesn't need to make a decision.

BTW . . . is this Dan?