Missed Base

[jimpiano]

Another play from our ASA Clinic.

Runner one is attempting to score on a base hit. She misses third base on her way to the plate and then is caught in a rundown. As she heads back to third she is obstructed. The umpire awards her third base.

Can a subsequent appeal that she missed third base be successful?

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Another play from our ASA Clinic.

Runner one is attempting to score on a base hit. She misses third base on her way to the plate and then is caught in a rundown. As she heads back to third she is obstructed. The umpire awards her third base.

Can a subsequent appeal that she missed third base be successful?

Before or after she attains the base? Was she tagged out, and the umpire called dead ball?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Another play from our ASA Clinic.

Runner one is attempting to score on a base hit. She misses third base on her way to the plate and then is caught in a rundown. As she heads back to third she is obstructed. The umpire awards her third base.

Can a subsequent appeal that she missed third base be successful?

What happens between "she is obstructed" and "the umpire awards her third base?" Since the award only comes once we have a dead ball, and a runner is allowed to fix their baserunning mistakes during an award after a dead ball, then if the appeal was not made BEFORE dead ball (thus before the umpire awards her third base), then no, an appeal for missing 3rd cannot be successful in the situation presented.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

What happens between "she is obstructed" and "the umpire awards her third base?" Since the award only comes once we have a dead ball, and a runner is allowed to fix their baserunning mistakes during an award after a dead ball, then if the appeal was not made BEFORE dead ball (thus before the umpire awards her third base), then no, an appeal for missing 3rd cannot be successful in the situation presented.

I don't think an award can be made unless the ball is dead so, to make it clearer, the runner was obstructed, the umpire signalled delayed dead ball, she was tagged out when the umpire called dead ball and awarded the runner third base. The defense appealed that on her way to home the runner missed third base. Can the appeal be successful?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

I don't think an award can be made unless the ball is dead so, to make it clearer, the runner was obstructed, the umpire signalled delayed dead ball, she was tagged out when the umpire called dead ball and awarded the runner third base. The defense appealed that on her way to home the runner missed third base. Can the appeal be successful?

No.........................

[Skahtboi]

Mike has the answer.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

I don't think an award can be made unless the ball is dead so, to make it clearer, the runner was obstructed, the umpire signalled delayed dead ball, she was tagged out when the umpire called dead ball and awarded the runner third base. The defense appealed that on her way to home the runner missed third base. Can the appeal be successful?

I believe I answered your question. Assuming your runner did actually go to third when awarded third, then no, it can't.

In fact ... if the award was HOME, the runner is allowed to return to third, touch it, and then go home ... in which case the appeal of the miss at third would not be successful.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

I believe I answered your question. Assuming your runner did actually go to third when awarded third, then no, it can't.

In fact ... if the award was HOME, the runner is allowed to return to third, touch it, and then go home ... in which case the appeal of the miss at third would not be successful.

The appeal would be denied.

A number of umpires attending were skeptical and, before the answer was given, thought the appeal should be granted.

But, as the ASA rules representative pointed out, the runner missing third base while heading for home is irrelevant to the facts of the play.

The runner was attempting to make third base. It does not matter that he/she missed touching it. He/she was obstructed trying to make third base.
The award would is the same as if she was obstructed between second and third.

As to the second part of your answer I dont agree.

If the runner is awarded home he/she is not automatically given the chance or opportunity to go back to third and then trot home.

I would call the runner out on an appeal at third. I don't think the rules permit the runner to retouch missed bases when the ball is dead.

If I am wrong please show me the rule.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

I don't think the rules permit the runner to retouch missed bases when the ball is dead.
If I am wrong please show me the rule.

Sure they do - it's, in application, no different than returning to a base left early on a tag up. See 8.5.G.2 and 4.6.E.

[IRISHMAFIA]

RS #1. Appeals.C.1,2 & D.3&NOTE
Rule 8.5.G.2

When a ball is ruled dead, runners must be given the opportunity to complete their running assignments prior to the umpire accepting any appeals or make any awards

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

RS #1. Appeals.C.1,2 & D.3&NOTE
Rule 8.5.G.2

When a ball is ruled dead, runners must be given the opportunity to complete their running assignments prior to the umpire accepting any appeals or make any awards

This one is a bit more complicated.

The book says the players must be given time to complete base running responsibilities when the ball is declared dead. It says in the case of an overthrow causing the dead ball to wait to see if the runners make an attempt to go back to a missed base before announcing the awards.

But what does the umpire do when killing the play on an obstruction when the base awarded is beyond the base that a runner missed?

My guess is the umpire says the runner is awarded the next base and then waits to see what the runner does.. if the runner proceeds to the awarded base before retouching the missed one any subsequent appeal should be allowed.(and if the awarded base is touched then no retreat to the previous missed base will be honored) If the runner, instead, goes back to the missed bag, then the runner is allowed to proceed to the award base.

Is this the proper interpretation?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

This one is a bit more complicated.

The book says the players must be given time to complete base running responsibilities when the ball is declared dead. It says in the case of an overthrow causing the dead ball to wait to see if the runners make an attempt to go back to a missed base before announcing the awards.

But what does the umpire do when killing the play on an obstruction when the base awarded is beyond the base that a runner missed?

My guess is the umpire says the runner is awarded the next base and then waits to see what the runner does.. if the runner proceeds to the awarded base before retouching the missed one any subsequent appeal should be allowed.(and if the awarded base is touched then no retreat to the previous missed base will be honored) If the runner, instead, goes back to the missed bag, then the runner is allowed to proceed to the award base.

Is this the proper interpretation?

It's handled the same

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

My guess is the umpire says the runner is awarded the next base and then waits to see what the runner does.. if the runner proceeds to the awarded base before retouching the missed one any subsequent appeal should be allowed.(and if the awarded base is touched then no retreat to the previous missed base will be honored) If the runner, instead, goes back to the missed bag, then the runner is allowed to proceed to the award base.

Is this the proper interpretation?

No.
1) Don't guess - know.
2) What is an umpire to do if your interp is correct? Call "Dead ball" and then make no award? What would you expect a runner to do if he did? Probably - stare at the umpire.

No, an umpire simply calls dead ball at the appropriate time, announces the obstruction and gives the award. The baserunner then does her thing ... which can certainly include running all the way back 3 bases if she chooses (say this runner was obstructed between 3rd and home, but missed 1st), and going to the awarded base.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

No.
1) Don't guess - know.
2) What is an umpire to do if your interp is correct? Call "Dead ball" and then make no award? What would you expect a runner to do if he did? Probably - stare at the umpire.

No, an umpire simply calls dead ball at the appropriate time, announces the obstruction and gives the award. The baserunner then does her thing ... which can certainly include running all the way back 3 bases if she chooses (say this runner was obstructed between 3rd and home, but missed 1st), and going to the awarded base.

Interesting that your interpretation is different than Mike's and is also different from the rule book.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Interesting that your interpretation is different than Mike's and is also different from the rule book.

I don't see any difference.