85% missed this one

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Tim C

"Originally Posted by SAump
The legal requirement to demonstrate voluntary and intentional release requires another hand to enter the glove to remove the ball shortly after the catch has already been made."

There is no such rule or interpretation under any code and in any official document.

This statement is not only inaccurate ir is simply bad up balderdash.

Regards,

"The legal requirement to demonstrate voluntary and intentional release requires another hand to enter the glove to remove the ball shortly after the catch has already been made."

It has been documented in this thread that VaIR is necessary to complete a legal catch.
What am I missing?

[dash_riprock]

The release has to be voluntary and intentional, if there is a release. Obtaining secure possession doesn't necessarily entail a release of the ball, and a voluntary release doesn't necessarily entail another hand in the glove.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

My question to you SAump...have you ever played baseball...I don't care how the glove was designed...the first touch versus "catch" rule is there for a very good reason.

Think about it...if it truly was a "catch" rule, coaches would be coaching thier kids to bobble the ball all the way into the infield to prevent any type of tag-up by the offense...that's why the rule is there...to protect the integrity of the game...and probably a few other reasons

What if first touch is a catch, ie. secure possession?

Does the FED question and rule 8-4-2 imply that a catch is not a secure grip of the baseball upon first touch? Think about it. A catch is not a catch...

As for the rest of your logic, balderdash.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by SAump

This statement is only accurate when a fielder flips the ball out of his glove.
It is not even a proper description of voluntary release, since a voluntary release entails another hand in {or near} the glove.
But I know it's contradicting time. You win.

So, if an outfielder catches a fly ball for the third out, jogs to the infield and drops the ball on the mound from his glove, you don't have voluntary release?


Tim.

[Interested Ump]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

So, if an outfielder catches a fly ball for the third out, jogs to the infield and drops the ball on the mound from his glove, you don't have voluntary release?


Tim.

The length from behind 2B, where many CF in LL under 11 catch fly balls, to the mound, is so short that it is very possible that control was not maintained.

No catch.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Interested Ump

The length from behind 2B, where many CF in LL under 11 catch fly balls, to the mound, is so short that it is very possible that control was not maintained.

No catch.

I haven't worked an 11U game in quite some time, but I'd imagine that this situation at that level would allow the fielder at least several steps after catching the ball before he reached the mound. Have you had a protest lodged for kicking this call?


Tim.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

So, if an outfielder catches a fly ball for the third out, jogs to the infield and drops the ball on the mound from his glove, you don't have voluntary release?
Tim.

Again, a fielder may flip the ball out of his glove.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Where can I find 7.08(d) in the FED rules book?

While I realize that rule differences exist among various levels of baseball, I would not qualify this question as an actual rule difference.
I argue that the moment a first fielder touches the ball usually takes place at the same time the ball was caught, not juggled, nor tipped.
Now, if we decide that a catch is not possible upon first touch, I suppose there is some other possible rule modification in order here.
If there is nothing in the question to indicate a ball is juggled or tipped, then a runner may leave as soon as the ball is caught.

I understand that the FED rule requires a runner touch the base after the fly ball is first touched by a fielder.
Somebody at the FED level is trying very hard to make their rule interpretation look different too.
I agree that FED 8-4-2 interpretation is different than OBR 7.08d in a literal sense.
But from what I have retouched upon so far; it aint so, Joe.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAump

While I realize that rule differences exist among various levels of baseball, I would not qualify this question as an actual rule difference.
I argue that the moment a first fielder touches the ball usually takes place at the same time the ball was caught, not juggled, nor tipped.
Now, if we decide that a catch is not possible upon first touch, I suppose there is some other possible rule modification in order here.
If there is nothing in the question to indicate a ball is juggled or tipped, then a runner may leave as soon as the ball is caught.

I understand that the FED rule requires a runner touch the base after the fly ball is first touched by a fielder.
Somebody at the FED level is trying very hard to make their rule interpretation look different too.
I agree that FED 8-4-2 interpretation is different than OBR 7.08d in a literal sense.
But from what I have retouched upon so far; it aint so, Joe.

The rule is the same in all codes -- a runner can leave when the ball is first touched.

A catch happens (is confirmed) some discernable time after the ball is touched. Even on a liner to F6, I'd guess that it's .5 seconds or so.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by lawump

85% of our membership missed this True/False question on the Fed Test:

If a fair batted ball is caught, a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder.

The 85% said "true".

What do you all think?

While I have probably been as guilty as anyone in terms of "bashing" the FED test (and, by implication, those responsible for producing it), I would like to offer the following....

Writing an effective test is a difficult thing to do.

In my opinion, both the scope (breadth of material addressed, diversity and size of the test-taking population, administrive requirements) and purpose(es) of the FED Part 1 Baseball test increase the degree of difficulty. While I don't "know" this to be the case, I believe that the purposes of the FED exam include trying to insure a minimum level of rules competency among FED-licensed officials, encouraging officials to read/review the published rules materials, and calling attention to the rules which have been revised since the previous year.

While it is easy to find flaws, all in all, I believe they do a decent job of achieving their aims.

On to the question at hand - specifically, Q83.

It seems that the primary objection to this question is that a person could know the rule (that a runner may meet his retouch obligation as soon as the first fielder makes the first touch of the ball, rather than having to wait until a legal catch is "proved") and still answer the question incorrectly.

I would agree.

lawump asserted that 85% of the members of his association answered the question incorrectly. I would be willing to bet that at least half of that 85% understood the rule. (Of course, I believe that lawump is from the Palmetto State, where they still have umps call runners out for appealable baserunning infractions without appeal - so I might be optimistic with that estimate... )

On the other hand, if you DON'T know the rule (that the runner may leave on the first touch), you will ALWAYS answer this question incorrectly. So, it's possible that 42.5% of lawump's assoc. didn't understand this point in the rules.

In some ways, this question is testing the person's test-taking skills in addition to his rules knowledge. If you actually go and read the rule, the test answer becomes obvious.

Now I don't believe test-taking skills contribute in any way to an umpire's competency. However, I believe an in-depth understanding of the rules and their application, even some things that are kind of "technical", does contribute to an umpire's overall competency.

If you can't pass this test, you probably shouldn't be umpiring.

If it upsets you to get a question marked wrong, well, then RTFM. ALL the answers are in the book(s), and it's an "open book" test. A couple of "discrepancies" in the answer key seem to appear every year. Mildly annoying, but it's not worth worrying about.

Those are my thoughts.

JM

[lawump]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

While I have probably been as guilty as anyone in terms of "bashing" the FED test (and, by implication, those responsible for producing it), I would like to offer the following....

Writing an effective test is a difficult thing to do.

In my opinion, both the scope (breadth of material addressed, diversity and size of the test-taking population, administrive requirements) and purpose(es) of the FED Part 1 Baseball test increase the degree of difficulty. While I don't "know" this to be the case, I believe that the purposes of the FED exam include trying to insure a minimum level of rules competency among FED-licensed officials, encouraging officials to read/review the published rules materials, and calling attention to the rules which have been revised since the previous year.

While it is easy to find flaws, all in all, I believe they do a decent job of achieving their aims.

On to the question at hand - specifically, Q83.

It seems that the primary objection to this question is that a person could know the rule (that a runner may meet his retouch obligation as soon as the first fielder makes the first touch of the ball, rather than having to wait until a legal catch is "proved") and still answer the question incorrectly.

I would agree.

lawump asserted that 85% of the members of his association answered the question incorrectly. I would be willing to bet that at least half of that 85% understood the rule. (Of course, I believe that lawump is from the Palmetto State, where they still have umps call runners out for appealable baserunning infractions without appeal - so I might be optimistic with that estimate... )

On the other hand, if you DON'T know the rule (that the runner may leave on the first touch), you will ALWAYS answer this question incorrectly. So, it's possible that 42.5% of lawump's assoc. didn't understand this point in the rules.

In some ways, this question is testing the person's test-taking skills in addition to his rules knowledge. If you actually go and read the rule, the test answer becomes obvious.

Now I don't believe test-taking skills contribute in any way to an umpire's competency. However, I believe an in-depth understanding of the rules and their application, even some things that are kind of "technical", does contribute to an umpire's overall competency.

If you can't pass this test, you probably shouldn't be umpiring.

If it upsets you to get a question marked wrong, well, then RTFM. ALL the answers are in the book(s), and it's an "open book" test. A couple of "discrepancies" in the answer key seem to appear every year. Mildly annoying, but it's not worth worrying about.

Those are my thoughts.

JM

Couple of brief thoughts:

More than 1/2 of the 85% that missed this question know this rule. We had a bunch of Division 1 umpires missing this...and they all know it.

Our test is "closed book".

As you implired, for the vast majority, this was an "annoyance" as our association's average score was 92...by far, the highest in SC.

And yes, we still do not have "appeals" in South Carolina high school baseball. (Well, except for checked swings that were adjudged to be a ball by the plate umpire.).

As a result, I'm still waiting for this following play to happen to one of us (SC umpires) in a game:

R1, hit-and-run, BR smokes it to the gap in right-center. R1 puts his head down and is well on his way to third...when F8 makes an unbelievable catch. F8 then fires to F3 to double-off R1, only with F8's adrenaline flowing after the great catch, he sails the throw into DBT. At the moment the ball goes into DBT, R1 is between second and third.

If you read and understand FED Rule 8...and then realize that we have no appeal play in SC...you will understand the craphouse that the umpires in this game are going to have.

It will happen someday, sometime. It has happened to several of our association members in non-high school games....eventually it will happen in high school.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

In my opinion, both the scope (breadth of material addressed, diversity and size of the test-taking population, administrive requirements) and purpose(es) of the FED Part 1 Baseball test increase the degree of difficulty. While I don't "know" this to be the case, I believe that the purposes of the FED exam include trying to insure a minimum level of rules competency among FED-licensed officials, encouraging officials to read/review the published rules materials, and calling attention to the rules which have been revised since the previous year.

While it is easy to find flaws, all in all, I believe they do a decent job of achieving their aims.

Don't know what the aims are of your local FED org but in Atlanta it's get some fukkers on the field. The FED test is open book, test answers in hand.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by Interested Ump

Tim BigUmp56, the length from behind 2B, where many CF in LL under 11 catch fly balls, to the mound, is so short that it is very possible that control was not maintained.

No catch.

How would you know? You haven't called baby ball in decades.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I haven't worked an 11U game in quite some time, but I'd imagine that this situation at that level would allow the fielder at least several steps after catching the ball before he reached the mound. Have you had a protest lodged for kicking this call?


Tim.

So like IU, you're inconclusive to present LL U12. OK, what do you work then? It's a mystery to us on the forum.

Originally Posted by lawump

As one member in our association argued in defense of his "true" answer (and he argued a lot more eloquently than I can write):

He said look at the meat of the question: "a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder".

He said that is true.

When told by another association member that the answer is "false" because a runner must touch a base after the ball has been TOUCHED by a fielder, he said, "that's not what the question is asking. A runner does not have to re-touch his base after it is touched, he only has to re-touch if it is caught. Meaning, that if the ball is touched by a fielder and then dropped, the runner is not liable to be put out for failing to re-touch. It is the act of the fielder making a legal catch that imposes upon the runner the requirement to retouch his base.

"Thus, a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder is true, because if the fielder does not catch the ball there cannot be a requirement to retouch, period."

However, I also see the other side. The question says "AFTER the batted ball has been caught..." and that IS false if you look at it from the point of view that the runner does not have to wait on the bag until, as JM points out, the fielder completes his catch with a voluntary release.

This is a BS question. As I said, 85% of our association got it wrong. Despite that, our association had the highest average grade of any association in the Palmetto State with an average score of 92 (we have 50+ members)...so, some of our guys know how to take this test (but apparently not this question).

Oh well.

Half of the questions on the test are based on a direct quotation of the rule. This is about as straight forward a question as possible. For anybody to suggest this question is True better go back and read the entire rule book. The basic reason the answer is false is that caught only describes the final result, not the method to the final result. If the guy bobbles it 10 times before finally securing it for a catch, a runner tagging up from first could probably make it around the bases by the time the fielder finally secures it and meeting the requirements for a catch. If you say catch is the requirement, a fielder could bobble the ball all the way into the infield and a runner could never advance. That's why they write the questions the way they do - to make sure you read and understand the question and apply the rules properly.