voluntary release

[noleump]

I was recently working the plate at an USSSA tourn finals 12u. There was one out bases loaded hit to short who secures ball and makes tag on the runner from second base with time to throw to first and drops the ball.My partner calls "safe" .The play ends and time is called and the inevitible argument follows.I move down 3rd base line to hold off other coaches and allow the head coach to talk to my partner.I have the other coaches in foul territory .I look over my shoulder to se my partner getting his *** chewed .He tosses the head coach . I escort off the field the head coach.I ask my partner (in private)does he want my take or need my help or something to that affect. His reply is no.End of what matters in this story.

My question is at what point would you call an out, when a fielder with the ball tags a runner? Should there be a delay to see if he keeps the ball in his glove/hand?

[JJ]

Sorry, but you didn't explain this situation very well. I will assume a few things and give you some direction.

You say "...short who secures ball and makes tag on the runner". It sounds like the had the ball securely in his glove and made the tag, and THEN lost the ball. If he had the ball, made the tag, and then lost the ball, you have an out. If the ball was not secured when he made the tag, then you didn't have a tag, so you didn't have an out.
That's the logic I would give the coach who came out to argue the play. Of course, since the ball ended up on the ground, it looked goofy and anytime there's a play that looks goofy odds are someone is going to question it.

Here's another "sort-of" related play - Runner on first, batter hits a double play ball to the shortstop. He flips to the second baseman for the first out, and after touching the base the second baseman is dumped (legally) by the runner sliding into second. The second baseman hits the ground hard and drops the ball. Remember, all this happens bang-bang. Do you still have the out at second base? Answer - if the second baseman had the ball securely when he touched the bag, the runner is out. He lost the ball AFTER he touched the bag. In your case, if he had the ball securely when he tagged the runner, the runner is out. He lost the ball AFTER the tag.

Now, if either of those fielders NEVER HAD CONTROL OF THE BALL when they made the play(s), that's a different baliwick. Good word.

JJ

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by JJ

You say "...short who secures ball and makes tag on the runner". It sounds like the had the ball securely in his glove and made the tag, and THEN lost the ball. If he had the ball, made the tag, and then lost the ball, you have an out.
JJ

The fielder needs secure possession AFTER tagging the runner, and any release of the ball MUST be voluntary. In this case, it sounds to me that the release was not voluntary. I would have him safe.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by noleump

My question is at what point would you call an out, when a fielder with the ball tags a runner? Should there be a delay to see if he keeps the ball in his glove/hand?

You call him out when he is out, not before. The runner is out when one of two things happen:

1. The fielder has secure possession of the ball while the tag is made AND AFTER the action has stopped. (He had the ball securely in his hand or glove when he made the tag, he maintains secure possession, and action stops).

2. His release of the ball is voluntary. In other words, he had secure possession of the ball, and the drop is the result of a separate, voluntary action (usually, taking the ball out of his glove to make a throw to 1st)

[johnnyg08]

Don't make it so difficult. Play at the plate, legal collision causes the ball to pop out of the catcher's mitt after a tag was applied. Your call is safe. It's no different at any other base, don't make it so tough.

[RPatrino]

Noleump, we are missing some valuable information in your post. Was the ball dropped out of the glove after the tag was made, or was the ball dropped during the transfer of the ball to the player's throwing hand? This is important because in one case the drop was involuntary, and the other voluntary.

If the ball was 'knocked' out of the fielders glove by the impact of the tag, there is no out. If the fielder dropped the ball attempting to secure it in his throwing hand, ie. 'on the transfer', (he reached into his glove to pull out the ball and dropped it) then I have an out.

[BigUmp56]

The J/R does a nice job of explaining "tag no tag."


"Catch" and "Tag" are similar concepts. A tag occurs when the ball is live and a fielder has the ball in his hand or glove (or both) and:

a) a base is touched by his person or

b) a runner is touched by any part of the glove/ball or hand/ball combination.

Such fielder must show complete control of the ball during and after the touch, and show this control by voluntarily releasing the ball. If, during or after the touch and before voluntary release has been shown, the ball is bobbled or dropped, it is not a tag.


Tim.

[PeteBooth]

The aforementioned is NOT the definition of a TAG as outlined in OBR 2.00

You are confusing the definition of a catch vs. a Tag

Pete Booth

[UmpJM]

Tim,

Personally, I find the JEA guidelines more consistent with the actual text and spirit of the rules & think J/R is "stretching" with the inclusion of a "voluntary release" criteria - which is clearly NOT in the text of the rules.

In establishing the validity of secure possession at the time of a tag, the umpire should determine that the player held the ball long enough and did not juggle the ball or momentarily lose possession before gaining full control and touching the runner. Unlike a catch, a legal tag is based on the status of the ball at the time the runner or base is touched and not on the final proof of possession.

JM

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by JJ

Sorry, but you didn't explain this situation very well. I will assume a few things and give you some direction.

JJ

He gave all the information I needed when he said it was a USSSA 12U game. Having helped at this level on a few occasions, you will see a combination of bad umpiring and coaching. I'm not saying the guy got the call wrong, but situations like the coaches rushing the field just make it look worse than what it really was. If you want to work on your rules knowledge that is the place to be, as the unusual will naturally take place and partners from hell are commonplace.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Tim,

Personally, I find the JEA guidelines more consistent with the actual text and spirit of the rules & think J/R is "stretching" with the inclusion of a "voluntary release" criteria - which is clearly NOT in the text of the rules.
JM

You beat me to it.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

The aforementioned is NOT the definition of a TAG as outlined in OBR 2.00

You are confusing the definition of a catch vs. a Tag

Pete Booth

You're right. I am confusing the two.

[oyaisee]

"I ask my partner (in private)does he want my take or need my help or something to that affect. His reply is no.End of what matters in this story."

Usually if your partner wants help HE WILL ask for it... Worry about your own kicked calls that you don't post on here...

I Tell you What "Jefe" you chief me like that after a call we are going to have words...

Think about it.....

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by noleump

I was recently working the plate at an USSSA tourn finals 12u. There was one out bases loaded hit to short who secures ball and makes tag on the runner from second base with time to throw to first and drops the ball.My partner calls "safe" .The play ends and time is called and the inevitible argument follows.I move down 3rd base line to hold off other coaches and allow the head coach to talk to my partner.I have the other coaches in foul territory .I look over my shoulder to se my partner getting his *** chewed .He tosses the head coach . I escort off the field the head coach.I ask my partner (in private)does he want my take or need my help or something to that affect. His reply is no.End of what matters in this story.

My question is at what point would you call an out, when a fielder with the ball tags a runner? Should there be a delay to see if he keeps the ball in his glove/hand?

I'm assuming the fielder tagged the runner and no throw was attempted therefore good call by your partner. Nice job letting your partner take care of business. You had no info. to offer your partner it was his call all the way.

Have no mercy on parent coache's. Off with their heads.

[soundedlikeastrike]

"My question is at what point would you call an out, when a fielder with the ball tags a runner? Should there be a delay to see if he keeps the ball in his glove/hand?"


Ah, there should be a bit of a delay, to ensure the F maintaines control of the ball. If a hard slide knocks a ball out after the tag, safe is the right call,
same on a hard tag in the OP. If the force generated by the tag causes the ball to come loose, safe.

I called this one time:
RHed F3, late break to the bag of a GB to F4's left, has F3 scrambling toward the bag, throw from F4 is to the RF side of the bag. F3 strectches back, snags the errant throw, hits the bag with his right foot ahead of the BR, his momentum spins him out of control in the direction of home, as he spins around the ball flies out of his glove and rolls to F2. Safe, was my call. No arguements, no protests, no offer of help from my partner, play on. U18 USSSA tourny.