voluntary release

[JJ]

Sorry, but you didn't explain this situation very well. I will assume a few things and give you some direction.

You say "...short who secures ball and makes tag on the runner". It sounds like the had the ball securely in his glove and made the tag, and THEN lost the ball. If he had the ball, made the tag, and then lost the ball, you have an out. If the ball was not secured when he made the tag, then you didn't have a tag, so you didn't have an out.
That's the logic I would give the coach who came out to argue the play. Of course, since the ball ended up on the ground, it looked goofy and anytime there's a play that looks goofy odds are someone is going to question it.

Here's another "sort-of" related play - Runner on first, batter hits a double play ball to the shortstop. He flips to the second baseman for the first out, and after touching the base the second baseman is dumped (legally) by the runner sliding into second. The second baseman hits the ground hard and drops the ball. Remember, all this happens bang-bang. Do you still have the out at second base? Answer - if the second baseman had the ball securely when he touched the bag, the runner is out. He lost the ball AFTER he touched the bag. In your case, if he had the ball securely when he tagged the runner, the runner is out. He lost the ball AFTER the tag.

Now, if either of those fielders NEVER HAD CONTROL OF THE BALL when they made the play(s), that's a different baliwick. Good word.

JJ

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by JJ

You say "...short who secures ball and makes tag on the runner". It sounds like the had the ball securely in his glove and made the tag, and THEN lost the ball. If he had the ball, made the tag, and then lost the ball, you have an out.
JJ

The fielder needs secure possession AFTER tagging the runner, and any release of the ball MUST be voluntary. In this case, it sounds to me that the release was not voluntary. I would have him safe.

[johnnyg08]

Don't make it so difficult. Play at the plate, legal collision causes the ball to pop out of the catcher's mitt after a tag was applied. Your call is safe. It's no different at any other base, don't make it so tough.

[RPatrino]

Noleump, we are missing some valuable information in your post. Was the ball dropped out of the glove after the tag was made, or was the ball dropped during the transfer of the ball to the player's throwing hand? This is important because in one case the drop was involuntary, and the other voluntary.

If the ball was 'knocked' out of the fielders glove by the impact of the tag, there is no out. If the fielder dropped the ball attempting to secure it in his throwing hand, ie. 'on the transfer', (he reached into his glove to pull out the ball and dropped it) then I have an out.

[BigUmp56]

The J/R does a nice job of explaining "tag no tag."


"Catch" and "Tag" are similar concepts. A tag occurs when the ball is live and a fielder has the ball in his hand or glove (or both) and:

a) a base is touched by his person or

b) a runner is touched by any part of the glove/ball or hand/ball combination.

Such fielder must show complete control of the ball during and after the touch, and show this control by voluntarily releasing the ball. If, during or after the touch and before voluntary release has been shown, the ball is bobbled or dropped, it is not a tag.


Tim.

[UmpJM]

Tim,

Personally, I find the JEA guidelines more consistent with the actual text and spirit of the rules & think J/R is "stretching" with the inclusion of a "voluntary release" criteria - which is clearly NOT in the text of the rules.

In establishing the validity of secure possession at the time of a tag, the umpire should determine that the player held the ball long enough and did not juggle the ball or momentarily lose possession before gaining full control and touching the runner. Unlike a catch, a legal tag is based on the status of the ball at the time the runner or base is touched and not on the final proof of possession.

JM

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Tim,

Personally, I find the JEA guidelines more consistent with the actual text and spirit of the rules & think J/R is "stretching" with the inclusion of a "voluntary release" criteria - which is clearly NOT in the text of the rules.
JM

You beat me to it.

[PeteBooth]

The aforementioned is NOT the definition of a TAG as outlined in OBR 2.00

You are confusing the definition of a catch vs. a Tag

Pete Booth

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

The aforementioned is NOT the definition of a TAG as outlined in OBR 2.00

You are confusing the definition of a catch vs. a Tag

Pete Booth

You're right. I am confusing the two.

[oyaisee]

"I ask my partner (in private)does he want my take or need my help or something to that affect. His reply is no.End of what matters in this story."

Usually if your partner wants help HE WILL ask for it... Worry about your own kicked calls that you don't post on here...

I Tell you What "Jefe" you chief me like that after a call we are going to have words...

Think about it.....

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by JJ

Sorry, but you didn't explain this situation very well. I will assume a few things and give you some direction.

JJ

He gave all the information I needed when he said it was a USSSA 12U game. Having helped at this level on a few occasions, you will see a combination of bad umpiring and coaching. I'm not saying the guy got the call wrong, but situations like the coaches rushing the field just make it look worse than what it really was. If you want to work on your rules knowledge that is the place to be, as the unusual will naturally take place and partners from hell are commonplace.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

He gave all the information I needed when he said it was a USSSA 12U game. Having helped at this level on a few occasions, you will see a combination of bad umpiring and coaching. I'm not saying the guy got the call wrong, but situations like the coaches rushing the field just make it look worse than what it really was. If you want to work on your rules knowledge that is the place to be, as the unusual will naturally take place and partners from hell are commonplace.

I'll drink to that.... here here.

-Tuss