appeal after overthrow

[Richard_Siegel]

Appeal plays come in two flavors. They are "relaxed" and "unrelaxed" appeals. Often the unrelaxed appeal is called a "continuous action appeal." That means that playing action has not ended yet on the play. Relaxed appeals happen after the the ball has been dead and when the pitcher has the ball and the umpire says, "play." Also, relaxed appeals happen after all playing action has ended, runners are stopped on their bases.

The rule that says the opportunity to appeal is lost of the defense errs upon making the appeal i.e. throws the ball out of play, only applies to the relaxed appeal. If an attempt to retire a runner on an appeal that he left his base too soon before a fly ball was touched, as in this OP, results in the ball being thrown out of play, the defense does not lose the right to make that appeal again once the ball has been made live.

However, in the original post, R1 was on 2B when the ball went OOP. That means he does not have the right to return to 1B to correct his baserunning infraction (left his base too soon before a fly ball was touched.) We do not call him out. We allow him to go back to retouch 1B if he wants to. We award him HP if we judge he was at 2B at the TOT, or 3B if he was not at 2B yet at the TOT. If the defense is smart enough, and they know the rules, even if R1 went back to 1B to retouch the base, they could appeal that he left 1B too soon and R1 would be declared out. His retouch of 1B means nothing if he was already on or beyond 2B when the ball went OOP.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Richard_Siegel

However, in the original post, R1 was on 2B when the ball went OOP. That means he does not have the right to return to 1B to correct his baserunning infraction (left his base too soon before a fly ball was touched.) We do not call him out. We allow him to go back to retouch 1B if he wants to. We award him HP if we judge he was at 2B at the TOT, or 3B if he was not at 2B yet at the TOT. If the defense is smart enough, and they know the rules, even if R1 went back to 1B to retouch the base, they could appeal that he left 1B too soon and R1 would be declared out. His retouch of 1B means nothing if he was already on or beyond 2B when the ball went OOP.

Sorry, Richard, that's not true under OBR. Under OBR, the runner is allowed to return unless he touches the "next" base *after* the ball goes out of play.

In FED, you are correct -- the runner is not allowed to (legally) return if he's on (or beyond) the "next" base *when* the ball goes out of play.

[_Bruno_]

whats the call, if R1 is sliding into 3rdbase when the ball becomes dead. i mean, he starts to slide, then the ball becomes dead and as soon as he pops up from sliding, he can't return to 1stbase ?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by _Bruno_

whats the call, if R1 is sliding into 3rdbase when the ball becomes dead. i mean, he starts to slide, then the ball becomes dead and as soon as he pops up from sliding, he can't return to 1stbase ?

Yes, that's the rule.

[Richard_Siegel]

Originally Posted by _Bruno_

whats the call, if R1 is sliding into 3rdbase when the ball becomes dead. i mean, he starts to slide, then the ball becomes dead and as soon as he pops up from sliding, he can't return to 1stbase ?

This restriction in FED only applies to situations where a runner has to return to retouch a base that was missed or left too soon before a fly ball was caught. If R2 was stealing 3B and is sliding into 3rd base just as the ball goes OOP because it is hit foul, he can legally go back to 2B.

In FED that would be correct.

However, I wouldn't be too concerned about it seeming unfair to the runner. I would bet that not one HS coach (except maybe those who also umpire) knows the rule. A runner who is on or beyond the next base when the ball becomes dead can not LEGALLY go back and retouch the base he missed or left oo soon. However, he can still go back and physically retouch the base. The retouch is meaningless under the rules, but I would bet that not one HS player or coach (except maybe those who also umpire) would realize that the retouch was not a legal retouch and the runner could still be successfully appealed after he was done taking his base award. However, since it is unlikely that they don't know this rule, they would see the meaningless retouch, believe it was legal, and they would not appeal.

To be honest, it 12 years of doing HS ball I have never seen a runner get caught on or beyond the next base that was missed or left too soon before a fly ball was caught.

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by Richard_Siegel

A runner who is on or beyond the next base when the ball becomes dead can not LEGALLY go back and retouch the base he missed or left oo soon. However, he can still go back and physically retouch the base. The retouch is meaningless under the rules, but I would bet that not one HS player or coach (except maybe those who also umpire) would realize that the retouch was not a legal retouch and the runner could still be successfully appealed after he was done taking his base award. However, since it is unlikely that they don't know this rule, they would see the meaningless retouch, believe it was legal, and they would not appeal.

the "next base" is the next base from where he is at at the time the ball becomes dead not the next base from the base he left early or missed.

example 1: R2 fly ball to F7. R2 leaves early and slides into third. throw from F7 gets by F5 and goes out of play. at the time the ball went out of play, R2 was already at 3B, making his next base home. he can legally go back and retouch 2B while ball is dead before he touches home.

example 2: R1, R2, 0 outs. ball hit to F9. both runners running on contact. after R2 has rounded 3B F9 throws behind R1 to F3. Ball goes out of play with R2 between 3B and home, R1 was between 1B and 2B. runners awarded home and third.

due to their positions when the ball went out of play R2's next base was home and R1's next base was 2B. R2 may legally return and touch 2B before he touches home, his "next base."

[Richard_Siegel]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Sorry, Richard, that's not true under OBR. Under OBR, the runner is allowed to return unless he touches the "next" base *after* the ball goes out of play.

In FED, you are correct -- the runner is not allowed to (legally) return if he's on (or beyond) the "next" base *when* the ball goes out of play.

I realize the distinction, for some reason I thought this thread was a FED situation.