appeal after overthrow

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Gentlemen,

Perhaps the following 2 case plays from the MLBUM will convince you that the defense does not lose its right to appeal if it throws the ball out of play in a "continuous action" appeal attempt:



and....



Now to me, it is obvious that in both of these plays the defense threw the ball out of play during a "Continuous action" appeal attempt and, according to the MLBUM, the defense still has the opportunity to appeal should the runner fail to complete his baserunning obligation while the ball is dead.

Clearly, according to the MLBUM, the defense has NOT lost its right of appeal.

JM

Game, set, and match! I think this is enough evidence to prove the point, along with the definition of continuous action.

Nice work sleuthing through the MLBUM, JM!

[ozzy6900]

(4) Runner on second base, no outs. Batter hits fly ball to right field that is caught for the first out. Runner at second base leaves too soon. Runner slides into third base safely, but the right fielder's throw goes into the dugout.

Ruling: Runner is awarded home. However, while the ball is dead the runner must return to and retouch second base. Furthermore, because he had already reached third base before the ball went out of play, the runner must return to second base before touching home (his next base). If the runner touches home, he may not return to second, and if the defense appeals he is declared out at second.

This play is not an appeal as in our scenario. The ball is following the runner but it does explain what happens when a ball goes out of play and the runner's responsibility.

(6) Runner on first, one out. Hit and run. Batter hits a line drive to the shortstop, who catches the ball for the second out. Shortstop's throw to first is wild and goes into the stands. Runner originally on first is between first and second when the wild throw is made and goes out of play.

Ruling: Runner is awarded third. However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base before touching second on the way to third. If the runner touches second, he may not return to first, and if the defensive team appeals he is declared out at first.

This play is very similar to ours in that it is an unquestionable appeal on the runner. Again, a good example of how to handle a ball out of play and the runner's responsibilities. In our scenario, the award to R1 would be home but R1 must return to 1st base, then proceed to his award. If R1 failed to do this, the defense would be able to appeal as this is not part of the original appeal (confused yet?).

I do not have a MLBUM so I will have to wait for Bobby to get an answer on this.

Regards

[justanotherblue]

I have to agree with Bobby, Ozz and SDS's initial gut, no further appeal is allowed. Because of the error. In 7.10 end notes....


"Successive appeals may not be made on a runner at the same base. If the defensive team on its first appeal errs, a request for a second appeal on the same runner at the same base shall not be allowed by the umpire. (Intended meaning of the word “err” is that the defensive team in making an appeal threw the ball out of play. For example, if the pitcher threw to first base to appeal and threw the ball into the stands, no second appeal would be allowed.)"

The defense clearly made an error in it's initial appeal. Although in the description, the rule book uses the pitcher, a clear catch and throw behind the runner in an attempt to appeal the runners leaving the base early, wouldn't this also meet this criteria?? To allow a second appeal is in clear violation of this section of the rule. I too, will sit along the sideline and wait.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

I have to agree with Bobby, Ozz and SDS's initial gut, no further appeal is allowed. Because of the error. In 7.10 end notes....


"Successive appeals may not be made on a runner at the same base. If the defensive team on its first appeal errs, a request for a second appeal on the same runner at the same base shall not be allowed by the umpire. (Intended meaning of the word “err” is that the defensive team in making an appeal threw the ball out of play. For example, if the pitcher threw to first base to appeal and threw the ball into the stands, no second appeal would be allowed.)"

Here is the Case Play again

6) Runner on first, one out. Hit and run. Batter hits a line drive to the shortstop, who catches the ball for the second out. Shortstop's throw to first is wild and goes into the stands. Runner originally on first is between first and second when the wild throw is made and goes out of play.

Ruling: Runner is awarded third. However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base before touching second on the way to third. If the runner touches second, he may not return to first, and if the defensive team appeals he is declared out at first.

There is no second appeal.

The Case play is practically the same as this OP

R1 Hit and run line drive to F6 who throws to first.

Let's stop: Everyone knows F6 is throwing to F3 to double up R1 just like the OP

However, F6 throws the ball into DBT.

We have 2 errors on the play.

The defense threw the ball into DBT so they are penalized

The runner did not tag up properly. Upon receiving the award R1 MUST correct his base running mistake or he could be called out on appeal as the case play indicates.

Now after the PU puts the ball back into play, if F1 for some uknown reason should throw over F3's head and into DBT while appealing then you would not allow another appeal.

FWIW in FED the point is moot.

Pete Booth

[sri8527]

if you don't mind i have a question here, i think the F9 throw is an appeal play, so you know where i stand. now let's just say the throw comes into F4, the runner is at second, F4 now throws to F1 standing behind the mound, continuous action, pitcher saw that R1, now R2 "left early", he throws to F3, ball goes into DBT. i think that is also an obvious appeal, and would not let them appeal after the ball is put back in play. how did i do?

steve

[justanotherblue]

I guess it's the continual action concept that had me struggling on this one. From reading you post again, you have a good argument. I still wasn't agreeing with it though. So..I started fishing...been through PBUC manual, OBR, J/R, JEA and finally broke out the JEAPU manual and guess what I found...yep.. the exact op play!! And damn if it doesn't agree with you. I guess that's why we are discussing this stuff, to keep it fresh, dust off the cob webs. I won't forget it again. I bow to your greatness....good thing I got two months to get it back.

Thank god the beers good and cold, I'm gonna be here a while

[bobbybanaduck]

while i still whole-heartedly disagree with the enforcement of this rule, it is indeed considered part of continuous action. kudos to those on both sides for presenting good arguments.

[ozzy6900]

After receiving a copy of the "sacred book", I am able to read it for myself (close to 20 times). I am convinced that this play was in fact continuing action (I too, do not like it but that is the ruling) so I stand with a Sam Adams and salute all those who called it.

Now for a special toast to the provider of the "sacred book" (you know how you are and I owe you one) - tip 'o the hat and down the hatch!

Regards

[fitump56]

The play involved "continuous action" and therefore, IMO, the defense does not lose their right to appeal.
Pete Booth

Three days later, you got it right.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

while i still whole-heartedly disagree with the enforcement of this rule, it is indeed considered part of continuous action. kudos to those on both sides for presenting good arguments.

Better to find out here than by a protest committee.........

[Richard_Siegel]

Appeal plays come in two flavors. They are "relaxed" and "unrelaxed" appeals. Often the unrelaxed appeal is called a "continuous action appeal." That means that playing action has not ended yet on the play. Relaxed appeals happen after the the ball has been dead and when the pitcher has the ball and the umpire says, "play." Also, relaxed appeals happen after all playing action has ended, runners are stopped on their bases.

The rule that says the opportunity to appeal is lost of the defense errs upon making the appeal i.e. throws the ball out of play, only applies to the relaxed appeal. If an attempt to retire a runner on an appeal that he left his base too soon before a fly ball was touched, as in this OP, results in the ball being thrown out of play, the defense does not lose the right to make that appeal again once the ball has been made live.

However, in the original post, R1 was on 2B when the ball went OOP. That means he does not have the right to return to 1B to correct his baserunning infraction (left his base too soon before a fly ball was touched.) We do not call him out. We allow him to go back to retouch 1B if he wants to. We award him HP if we judge he was at 2B at the TOT, or 3B if he was not at 2B yet at the TOT. If the defense is smart enough, and they know the rules, even if R1 went back to 1B to retouch the base, they could appeal that he left 1B too soon and R1 would be declared out. His retouch of 1B means nothing if he was already on or beyond 2B when the ball went OOP.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Richard_Siegel

However, in the original post, R1 was on 2B when the ball went OOP. That means he does not have the right to return to 1B to correct his baserunning infraction (left his base too soon before a fly ball was touched.) We do not call him out. We allow him to go back to retouch 1B if he wants to. We award him HP if we judge he was at 2B at the TOT, or 3B if he was not at 2B yet at the TOT. If the defense is smart enough, and they know the rules, even if R1 went back to 1B to retouch the base, they could appeal that he left 1B too soon and R1 would be declared out. His retouch of 1B means nothing if he was already on or beyond 2B when the ball went OOP.

Sorry, Richard, that's not true under OBR. Under OBR, the runner is allowed to return unless he touches the "next" base *after* the ball goes out of play.

In FED, you are correct -- the runner is not allowed to (legally) return if he's on (or beyond) the "next" base *when* the ball goes out of play.

[_Bruno_]

whats the call, if R1 is sliding into 3rdbase when the ball becomes dead. i mean, he starts to slide, then the ball becomes dead and as soon as he pops up from sliding, he can't return to 1stbase ?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by _Bruno_

whats the call, if R1 is sliding into 3rdbase when the ball becomes dead. i mean, he starts to slide, then the ball becomes dead and as soon as he pops up from sliding, he can't return to 1stbase ?

Yes, that's the rule.

[Richard_Siegel]

Originally Posted by _Bruno_

whats the call, if R1 is sliding into 3rdbase when the ball becomes dead. i mean, he starts to slide, then the ball becomes dead and as soon as he pops up from sliding, he can't return to 1stbase ?

This restriction in FED only applies to situations where a runner has to return to retouch a base that was missed or left too soon before a fly ball was caught. If R2 was stealing 3B and is sliding into 3rd base just as the ball goes OOP because it is hit foul, he can legally go back to 2B.

In FED that would be correct.

However, I wouldn't be too concerned about it seeming unfair to the runner. I would bet that not one HS coach (except maybe those who also umpire) knows the rule. A runner who is on or beyond the next base when the ball becomes dead can not LEGALLY go back and retouch the base he missed or left oo soon. However, he can still go back and physically retouch the base. The retouch is meaningless under the rules, but I would bet that not one HS player or coach (except maybe those who also umpire) would realize that the retouch was not a legal retouch and the runner could still be successfully appealed after he was done taking his base award. However, since it is unlikely that they don't know this rule, they would see the meaningless retouch, believe it was legal, and they would not appeal.

To be honest, it 12 years of doing HS ball I have never seen a runner get caught on or beyond the next base that was missed or left too soon before a fly ball was caught.