appeal after overthrow

[UmpJM]

bobby,

The MLBUM #6 contains the "unmistakeable" provision:

(6) An appeal should be clearly intended as an appeal, either by a verbal request by the player or an act that unmistakably indicates an appeal to the umpire.

(Steve, I posted the text of #3 in my post above.)

If the defense catches a batted ball in flight and then throws in the direction of a base that a runner obviously left early and has a retouch obligation, that qualifies in my mind as an "unmistakeable act".

In the discussion of missed base and retouch appeals, J/R also adds the proviso that the runner is subject to appeal if the appeal occurs (again, my emphasis)

...before the next pitch or post-continuous action play ....

JM

[SanDiegoSteve]

JM...so aren't you proving our point or making our argument for us? If it is an unmistakeable appeal, why doesn't it count as an attempt of an appeal when F8 throws it into the dugout? Doesn't #6 here clarify that the appeal is not part of continuous action?

[bobbybanaduck]

the #6's are the same in both. so what it comes down to is the definition of continuous action, which i haven't found anywhere. my argument is that continuous action is qualified as play being made on advancing runners. this allows the defense to continue making plays on runners without being subject to losing their right to appeal. it should not, however, act as a safety blanket that would let them err on this unmistakable attempted appeal and still be allowed to appeal after throwing it out of play.

[UmpJM]

bobby and Steve,

That's not how I read it.

The only place I know of where the term "continuous action" is defined is in J/R:

Continuous action: an uninterrupted progression of play starting with the pitch and ending ty[ically when the runners have ceased trying to advance, and the defense has relaxed and is returning (or has returned) the ball to the pitcher. ...

The way I read the MLBUM and J/R is that the defense cannot lose its right to appeal during the continous action of the play during which the baserunning infraction occurred. Once action has relaxed (i.e., the "continuous action" of the play has ended) the defense can lose its right to appeal by throwing a pitch, making a play on a runner, or throwing the ball out of play as part of an appeal attempt.

JM

[bobbybanaduck]

ending when the runners have ceased trying to advance! there it is!

[UmpJM]

Gentlemen,

Perhaps the following 2 case plays from the MLBUM will convince you that the defense does not lose its right to appeal if it throws the ball out of play in a "continuous action" appeal attempt:

(4) Runner on second base, no outs. Batter hits fly ball to right field that is caught for the first out. Runner at second base leaves too soon. Runner slides into third base safely, but the right fielder's throw goes into the dugout.

Ruling: Runner is awarded home. However, while the ball is dead the runner must return to and retouch second base. Furthermore, because he had already reached third base before the ball went out of play, the runner must return to second base before touching home (his next base). If the runner touches home, he may not return to second, and if the defense appeals he is declared out at second.

and....

(6) Runner on first, one out. Hit and run. Batter hits a line drive to the shortstop, who catches the ball for the second out. Shortstop's throw to first is wild and goes into the stands. Runner originally on first is between first and second when the wild throw is made and goes out of play.

Ruling: Runner is awarded third. However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base before touching second on the way to third. If the runner touches second, he may not return to first, and if the defensive team appeals he is declared out at first.

Now to me, it is obvious that in both of these plays the defense threw the ball out of play during a "Continuous action" appeal attempt and, according to the MLBUM, the defense still has the opportunity to appeal should the runner fail to complete his baserunning obligation while the ball is dead.

Clearly, according to the MLBUM, the defense has NOT lost its right of appeal.

JM

[bobbybanaduck]

the first scenario is continuous action as the play is being made on the runner going into third. that play is not relevant to this discussion. the second play, however, is very much like what we have been discussing. i don't agree with it, but if that's what it says in the book, then the protest will be upheld. i have an email in on this sitch as well. i'll let you know what he comes back with. good discussion on this one, y'all!

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Gentlemen,

Perhaps the following 2 case plays from the MLBUM will convince you that the defense does not lose its right to appeal if it throws the ball out of play in a "continuous action" appeal attempt:



and....



Now to me, it is obvious that in both of these plays the defense threw the ball out of play during a "Continuous action" appeal attempt and, according to the MLBUM, the defense still has the opportunity to appeal should the runner fail to complete his baserunning obligation while the ball is dead.

Clearly, according to the MLBUM, the defense has NOT lost its right of appeal.

JM

Game, set, and match! I think this is enough evidence to prove the point, along with the definition of continuous action.

Nice work sleuthing through the MLBUM, JM!

[ozzy6900]

(4) Runner on second base, no outs. Batter hits fly ball to right field that is caught for the first out. Runner at second base leaves too soon. Runner slides into third base safely, but the right fielder's throw goes into the dugout.

Ruling: Runner is awarded home. However, while the ball is dead the runner must return to and retouch second base. Furthermore, because he had already reached third base before the ball went out of play, the runner must return to second base before touching home (his next base). If the runner touches home, he may not return to second, and if the defense appeals he is declared out at second.

This play is not an appeal as in our scenario. The ball is following the runner but it does explain what happens when a ball goes out of play and the runner's responsibility.

(6) Runner on first, one out. Hit and run. Batter hits a line drive to the shortstop, who catches the ball for the second out. Shortstop's throw to first is wild and goes into the stands. Runner originally on first is between first and second when the wild throw is made and goes out of play.

Ruling: Runner is awarded third. However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base before touching second on the way to third. If the runner touches second, he may not return to first, and if the defensive team appeals he is declared out at first.

This play is very similar to ours in that it is an unquestionable appeal on the runner. Again, a good example of how to handle a ball out of play and the runner's responsibilities. In our scenario, the award to R1 would be home but R1 must return to 1st base, then proceed to his award. If R1 failed to do this, the defense would be able to appeal as this is not part of the original appeal (confused yet?).

I do not have a MLBUM so I will have to wait for Bobby to get an answer on this.

Regards

[PeteBooth]

JM I think it's time to ask Rick on this one.

Do you have Rick's E-mail address and then we can get some authoritative opinion on this matter.

IMO, you cannot let R1 "off the hook" for not completing his base running responsibilities. Since we had continious action the defense does not lose their right to appeal.

Pete Booth