appeal after overthrow

[bobbybanaduck]

Pete, the side of this argument ozzy and i are on is that the defense erred on it's attempt to appeal already by throwing the ball out of play. there is only one reason to throw to first base in this situation, to appeal that R1 had not retouched. and, by rule, if the dfense errs on it's attempt to appeal, they lose their right to appeal, so oz and i are not going to allow another attempt. again, i'm inviting a protest, but you've got to tell me what, exactly, you are protesting, and present your argument for the protest to be accepted. if you do that i will consult with my partner and then we'll decide whether or not to accept the protest.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Here is the thread in which my very same argument was shot down and the reasoning behind it. I'm still in Bobby and Ozzy's camp with this one.

Strange appeal play

[bobbybanaduck]

JM,

that was the argument i was waiting for. good work. now look farther down on the page. do you have a #6? i'm in the PBUC manual, not the MLBUM, so it may be different, though our #3's are the same.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

how 'bout we try this scenario on for comparison. keep everything the same except instead of the ball being hit to F9 what if the ball was hit on a line to the second baseman? he catches it and throws to first to "double up" R1 who was off and running on the pitch. the ball sails into the dugout.

Exactly my point also! Most people do not realize that the "double up" is really an appeal play. Well, the throw from F9 (in my judgment) is an appeal, not a continuous action play. therefore, if you wouldn't allow a 2nd appeal on the "double up" from F4, why would you allow a 2nd appeal because F9 made the throw. The whole argument on this is "coach's thinking" which as we know is not usually correct. Furthermore, once I say "in my judgment", you are pretty much "dead" as a coach.

Regards

[UmpJM]

bobby and ozzy,

The defense only loses its right to appeal if they throw the ball out of play during an appeal attempt that occurs after the continuous action of the play during which the baserunninig infraction occurred has ended.

While this is not explicitly spelled out inthe text of the rules, it is supported by the following from the MLBUM (my emphasis):

(3) If the pitcher or any member of the defensive team throws the ball out of play when making an appeal, such act shall be considered an attempted play. No further appeal will be allowed on any runner at any base. (This refers to when an appeal is being made after a definite break in action.)

JM

[PeteBooth]

again, i'm inviting a protest, but you've got to tell me what, exactly, you are protesting, and present your argument for the protest to be accepted. if you do that i will consult with my partner and then we'll decide whether or not to accept the protest.

[/QUOTE]

Hey it's Friday so let's have some fun. I'll play the rat (what else is new)

Here's the call on the field

1. Time
2. Number 23 awarded home (2 bases from TOT and again assumption is that R1 now R2 was already on second base at TOT)

Upon receiving his base running awards R2 does not go back and re-touch first base but goes directly to and touches 3rd and home in order.

The PU puts ball back in play and F1 throws to F3 appealing that R1 left early.

Your ruling on the field is that the appeal would not be allowed.


Me: "Blue can I have TIME"

You: Ok skip We have Time

Me: Why are you not allowing the appeal

You: You give me your explanation

Me: I hear what you are saying but R1 did not fulfill his base running obligations

You: Skip that's my ruling

Me: Ok Blue I protest

Now I guess we will see what happens

The play involved "continuous action" and therefore, IMO, the defense does not lose their right to appeal. In addition just because the defense erred does not relieve the base runner from fullfilling his base running responsibilities.

I think J/R and Carl's BRD mention "continuous action" when it comes to appeals so I will do some research over the weekend.

This is similar to the following:

B1 hits a rope to F9, misses first base and realizes his mistake on route to second base. He retreats back to first where the ball from F9 sails over F3's head and into DBT.

The umpire calls Time and makes the awards. If B1 does not go back and re-touch first base he can be out on appeal.

Pete Booth

[fitump56]

The play involved "continuous action" and therefore, IMO, the defense does not lose their right to appeal.
Pete Booth

Three days later, you got it right.

[Richard_Siegel]

Appeal plays come in two flavors. They are "relaxed" and "unrelaxed" appeals. Often the unrelaxed appeal is called a "continuous action appeal." That means that playing action has not ended yet on the play. Relaxed appeals happen after the the ball has been dead and when the pitcher has the ball and the umpire says, "play." Also, relaxed appeals happen after all playing action has ended, runners are stopped on their bases.

The rule that says the opportunity to appeal is lost of the defense errs upon making the appeal i.e. throws the ball out of play, only applies to the relaxed appeal. If an attempt to retire a runner on an appeal that he left his base too soon before a fly ball was touched, as in this OP, results in the ball being thrown out of play, the defense does not lose the right to make that appeal again once the ball has been made live.

However, in the original post, R1 was on 2B when the ball went OOP. That means he does not have the right to return to 1B to correct his baserunning infraction (left his base too soon before a fly ball was touched.) We do not call him out. We allow him to go back to retouch 1B if he wants to. We award him HP if we judge he was at 2B at the TOT, or 3B if he was not at 2B yet at the TOT. If the defense is smart enough, and they know the rules, even if R1 went back to 1B to retouch the base, they could appeal that he left 1B too soon and R1 would be declared out. His retouch of 1B means nothing if he was already on or beyond 2B when the ball went OOP.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Richard_Siegel

However, in the original post, R1 was on 2B when the ball went OOP. That means he does not have the right to return to 1B to correct his baserunning infraction (left his base too soon before a fly ball was touched.) We do not call him out. We allow him to go back to retouch 1B if he wants to. We award him HP if we judge he was at 2B at the TOT, or 3B if he was not at 2B yet at the TOT. If the defense is smart enough, and they know the rules, even if R1 went back to 1B to retouch the base, they could appeal that he left 1B too soon and R1 would be declared out. His retouch of 1B means nothing if he was already on or beyond 2B when the ball went OOP.

Sorry, Richard, that's not true under OBR. Under OBR, the runner is allowed to return unless he touches the "next" base *after* the ball goes out of play.

In FED, you are correct -- the runner is not allowed to (legally) return if he's on (or beyond) the "next" base *when* the ball goes out of play.

[_Bruno_]

whats the call, if R1 is sliding into 3rdbase when the ball becomes dead. i mean, he starts to slide, then the ball becomes dead and as soon as he pops up from sliding, he can't return to 1stbase ?

[Richard_Siegel]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Sorry, Richard, that's not true under OBR. Under OBR, the runner is allowed to return unless he touches the "next" base *after* the ball goes out of play.

In FED, you are correct -- the runner is not allowed to (legally) return if he's on (or beyond) the "next" base *when* the ball goes out of play.

I realize the distinction, for some reason I thought this thread was a FED situation.