Website

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by bossman72

...i don't think MLB is keeping a vast abundance of black umpires in the minors just because they're black, which is what this website seems to be implying. If a black umpire is qualified to work in the MLB, he will work there without question.

In regards to hiring black officials, my friend who is black and working his way up into the higher echelon in another sport has told me "it will get your foot in the door, but it sure won't keep you there."

They are right, there is a lack of black umpires in the MLB, but to call MLB racist is terrible, since that would imply that they are not hiring black umpires simply because they are black, which i don't think is the case.

Really? SNAP SNAP FINGERS over here is reality.

MLB hires umpires with an eye on demographics. Blacks have turned away from baseball since black athletes have turned away from baseball.

SNAP SNAP

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by fitump56

Really? SNAP SNAP FINGERS over here is reality.

MLB hires umpires with an eye on demographics. Blacks have turned away from baseball since black athletes have turned away from baseball.

SNAP SNAP

Why anyone would get concerned over one internet web site or anything Fitump says is mind boggling.


But it is also clear that Mike Winters embarassed major league umpires.

[JRutledge]

There could be a lot of possibilities. It could be there are not very many Black umpires in general. I do not see a lot of Black people participating in baseball for many reasons. I know in my local areas there are very few Blacks that even want to umpire at the HS level. That does not mean there is not discrimination that is very active. I have no idea, I personally do not know of any personal situations where discrimination has taken place, but I do live in America and if things have not changed in other aspects of society, why would I expect it to be so drastically different here.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

But, and by no means am I a racist, alot of the african american guys I've worked with just doing summer tourneys and stuff are there for the money, and you can tell by their mechanics (which are often non existent) and the way they handle themselves. There are white guys like this as well, but I see quite a few african americans like this every summer and I can't stand working with someone (regardless of race) like this.

Let me let you in on a little secret. Most umpires working during the summer are in it for the money!!!! Most games during the summer are nothing but money grabs from the standpoint that games usually have little or no significance to the umpire or official. At least that is the case where I live.

I work a lot of summer basketball and almost all the officials that are white never move and that is even the very good and experienced official.

I really do not understand the generalizations you just made.

Peace

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

Most of the african americans I see working baseball do kids baseball for the money. I dont see alot of them trying to work higher level varsity and college baseball.

If you are drawing the conclusion in the first sentence based on the evidence you quote in the second sentence, your data is far too limited and your logic is extremely flawed.

[BretMan]

msavakinas,

I see that your location is listed as "Columbus, Ohio" which is where I live, so quite possibly we are in the same association. I know that our association boasts of 400-plus members. That figure includes active, retired and even honorary membership. The actual number of active officials actually working games is smaller than that.

I certainly don't have any inside information breaking down the racial make-up of the membership, but can offer observational data based on my own experience.

Our typical weekly winter meetings are attended by perhaps 200 individuals. Of those in attendance, my best estimate would be that fewer than ten (and ten is probably on the high side) are black officials.

And this in a city with an African-American population approaching 40%, a city that is often cited as one of the best in the country for presenting a positive atmosphere for minorities in terms of lifestyle and opportunity.

Unless there is some super-secret conspiracy to prevent blacks from joining this association, where the memebership is open to anyone interested, willing to pay the fees, pass the tests and attend the meetings, my observational conclusion would have to be that (in this area, at least) there is not a great interest in baseball umpiring among African-Americans.

I suspect that similar factors may be at work in the arena of professional baseball, of which I admitedly have no first hand knowledge.

This past year, the Ohio High School Athletic Association took steps to increase the number of minority umpires amongst its ranks. Personally, I feel that those efforts were misguided and, quite possibly could be construed as reverse discrimination. But I'll step aside now and save that story for another post.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by BretMan

msavakinas,

I see that your location is listed as "Columbus, Ohio" which is where I live, so quite possibly we are in the same association. I know that our association boasts of 400-plus members. That figure includes active, retired and even honorary membership. The actual number of active officials actually working games is smaller than that.

I certainly don't have any inside information breaking down the racial make-up of the membership, but can offer observational data based on my own experience.

Our typical weekly winter meetings are attended by perhaps 200 individuals. Of those in attendance, my best estimate would be that fewer than ten (and ten is probably on the high side) are black officials.

And this in a city with an African-American population approaching 40%, a city that is often cited as one of the best in the country for presenting a positive atmosphere for minorities in terms of lifestyle and opportunity.

Unless there is some super-secret conspiracy to prevent blacks from joining this association, where the memebership is open to anyone interested, willing to pay the fees, pass the tests and attend the meetings, my observational conclusion would have to be that (in this area, at least) there is not a great interest in baseball umpiring among African-Americans.

I suspect that similar factors may be at work in the arena of professional baseball, of which I admitedly have no first hand knowledge.

This past year, the Ohio High School Athletic Association took steps to increase the number of minority umpires amongst its ranks. Personally, I feel that those efforts were misguided and, quite possibly could be construed as reverse discrimination. But I'll step aside now and save that story for another post.

I

I agree and add that basketball and football have a higher per centage of minority officials.

For the record, the black population of Columbus is just under 25%.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

For the record, the black population of Columbus is just under 25%.

Yes, I stand corrected.

That figure comes from the 2000 census- now nearly a decade out of date. The most recent figures I could find show the total "non-white" population, not the black population alone, trending upward near 40% and that may be what I was thinking of.

I guess I'd better start researching my posts like I'm writing a college thesis!

That figure aside, I still see relatively few African-American baseball officials in my area, far fewer than than are represented in the population as a whole.

What I have not seen is any evidence of a race-based agenda to dissuade minority candidates from becoming umpires. To the contrary, there have been recent recruiting efforts to add minority umpires to the ranks.

Unfortunately, that effort has involved lowering the standards of training and certification requirements. While this effort may indeed increase the number of minority umpires, I can't see it increasing the number of competent umpires, regardless of race or gender.

(P.S. to msavakinas: I am also in the COBUA and that is the association to which I am refering.)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

my point was that do you see alot of african americans working higher level games? do you see them working alot of D1 series in your area? Its an example that was meant to show that alot of the african american umpires in my area aren't trying to move up etc etc, so how could the website expect there to be alot of african americans in MLB? Most of the african americans I see working baseball do kids baseball for the money. I dont see alot of them trying to work higher level varsity and college baseball. I can only think of 1 I know off of the top of my head that works D1 Baseball and I just met him about a month ago. That was my point, I will admit it was not very clearly written before.

I attended the NCAA Baseball Meeting in Indianapolis last year. Many of the umpires were D1 and I was one of the only African-Americans in the room if I remember correctly. Now when I attend the NCAA Basketball Meeting on Saturday, I know the composition in the room will be very different.

And in many cases as someone that has worked college and HS games, I am by far just about the only African-American working. I can count on both hands the number of times I have worked games with other African-Americans in my career. So the issue in my opinion is not just discrimination, it is also participation. I am not so sure there are many African-Americans that even try to go into pro ball if they are not in the other areas of amateur ball.

I did not read all the material in the web site and it sounds more like a bunch of opinions, but that does not mean some of the information is not correct. I just think there is more to the lack of Black umpires in MLB than simply discrimination. And comments like you made earlier does not make me think things have completely changed. You do not have to be a racist to practice stereotypes that can affect opportunity.

Peace

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You do not have to be a racist to practice stereotypes that can affect opportunity.

This is an excellent point, and one that many white folk seem not to get. They search their souls and find no race hatred, and they infer that black folks' perception of inequality of opportunity is a mis-perception (or worse).

But I had to chuckle at the claim that black umpires never make it to the world series, given this year's crew (and not just this year's).

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You do not have to be a racist to practice stereotypes that can affect opportunity.

What do you mean by this? Can you give an example?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bossman72

What do you mean by this? Can you give an example?

I live in a suburb of Chicago that is mostly white. I also did not grow up near Chicago or any suburb and I have had people assume I have a certain background that I do not have or work games in places I have never worked. There is an association in this area that is almost entirely Black that is located inside the city of Chicago. Most of the membership of that particular association works the Chicago Public League. Many CPS schools are poorer and do not have extensive resources in sports like baseball and football. I have had people assume by my color alone that I belong to this organization which I currently do not. I have had people assume I know people that I did not know. I have been assigned games in conferences only to the one or two Black schools and not assigned to schools that are closer to where I live or to schools. There are even some suburban conferences that might have a school or two that is all-Black and in a couple of cases I see the one or two Black schools multiple times and never see the majority of the schools that do not look like me. Now that is not entirely a problem, but why am I assigned to schools that are right in my back yard some of the time? That is frustrating when you just want to be treated the same as everyone else, but people draw conclusions about you that do not fit your experience and you have to prove things that others do not have to. For the record, I am not talking about baseball assigning which is treated very different than other sports I work. And I do not believe for a second that most of these things situations were done intentionally, but I have been put in situations that inconvenience me because of what they might have assumed.

I am not going to assume that answers your question, but that is the best I can do without getting too controversial.

Peace

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

J-Rut,

You are making my point for me. I hope you understand my thinking. I just dont like the website that was listed earlier because it makes it look like the white man in the hierarchy of baseball doesn't want african americans in baseball umpiring. That is simply not true. They blamed it all on the racism, while I blame it on the fact that not many African Americans strive to become Major League Baseball Umpires or even collegiate umpires.

If you think there is no racism in MLB, then you have to also think there is no racism inwhite society. Whites can't get along with whites; other-colored skins fall below that level of social disruption.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Let me let you in on a little secret. Most umpires working during the summer are in it for the money!!!!
Peace

And the rest of the time, its for the social good.

ever.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There could be a lot of possibilities. It could be there are not very many Black umpires in general. I do not see a lot of Black people participating in baseball for many reasons. I know in my local areas there are very few Blacks that even want to umpire at the HS level. That does not mean there is not discrimination that is very active. I have no idea, I personally do not know of any personal situations where discrimination has taken place, but I do live in America and if things have not changed in other aspects of society, why would I expect it to be so drastically different here.

Peace

Blacks don't participate in baseball for several, valid reasons. One, it does not suit their higher quick-reponse skill sets. Two, it interferes with basketball/football. Three, there is less social influence and fewer scholarships for blacks collegiaelty. Add ten or 15 more actual reasons, vila, blacks aren't in a baseball mentality.