Website

[lawump]

At the risk of starting a major flame war, what do you all think about this site that I stumbled upon when doing a google news search for "umpire"?

http://www.blackathlete.net/artman2/...d_Series.shtml

http://www.blackathlete.net/artman2/..._Scandal.shtml

http://www.blackathlete.net/Blackbox...alreport3.html

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by lawump

At the risk of starting a major flame war, what do you all think about this site that I stumbled upon when doing a google news search for "umpire"?

http://www.blackathlete.net/artman2/...d_Series.shtml

http://www.blackathlete.net/artman2/..._Scandal.shtml

http://www.blackathlete.net/Blackbox...alreport3.html

...i don't think MLB is keeping a vast abundance of black umpires in the minors just because they're black, which is what this website seems to be implying. If a black umpire is qualified to work in the MLB, he will work there without question.

In regards to hiring black officials, my friend who is black and working his way up into the higher echelon in another sport has told me "it will get your foot in the door, but it sure won't keep you there."

They are right, there is a lack of black umpires in the MLB, but to call MLB racist is terrible, since that would imply that they are not hiring black umpires simply because they are black, which i don't think is the case.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by bossman72

...i don't think MLB is keeping a vast abundance of black umpires in the minors just because they're black, which is what this website seems to be implying. If a black umpire is qualified to work in the MLB, he will work there without question.

In regards to hiring black officials, my friend who is black and working his way up into the higher echelon in another sport has told me "it will get your foot in the door, but it sure won't keep you there."

They are right, there is a lack of black umpires in the MLB, but to call MLB racist is terrible, since that would imply that they are not hiring black umpires simply because they are black, which i don't think is the case.

Really? SNAP SNAP FINGERS over here is reality.

MLB hires umpires with an eye on demographics. Blacks have turned away from baseball since black athletes have turned away from baseball.

SNAP SNAP

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by fitump56

Really? SNAP SNAP FINGERS over here is reality.

MLB hires umpires with an eye on demographics. Blacks have turned away from baseball since black athletes have turned away from baseball.

SNAP SNAP

Why anyone would get concerned over one internet web site or anything Fitump says is mind boggling.


But it is also clear that Mike Winters embarassed major league umpires.

[JRutledge]

There could be a lot of possibilities. It could be there are not very many Black umpires in general. I do not see a lot of Black people participating in baseball for many reasons. I know in my local areas there are very few Blacks that even want to umpire at the HS level. That does not mean there is not discrimination that is very active. I have no idea, I personally do not know of any personal situations where discrimination has taken place, but I do live in America and if things have not changed in other aspects of society, why would I expect it to be so drastically different here.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

But, and by no means am I a racist, alot of the african american guys I've worked with just doing summer tourneys and stuff are there for the money, and you can tell by their mechanics (which are often non existent) and the way they handle themselves. There are white guys like this as well, but I see quite a few african americans like this every summer and I can't stand working with someone (regardless of race) like this.

Let me let you in on a little secret. Most umpires working during the summer are in it for the money!!!! Most games during the summer are nothing but money grabs from the standpoint that games usually have little or no significance to the umpire or official. At least that is the case where I live.

I work a lot of summer basketball and almost all the officials that are white never move and that is even the very good and experienced official.

I really do not understand the generalizations you just made.

Peace

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

Most of the african americans I see working baseball do kids baseball for the money. I dont see alot of them trying to work higher level varsity and college baseball.

If you are drawing the conclusion in the first sentence based on the evidence you quote in the second sentence, your data is far too limited and your logic is extremely flawed.

[BretMan]

msavakinas,

I see that your location is listed as "Columbus, Ohio" which is where I live, so quite possibly we are in the same association. I know that our association boasts of 400-plus members. That figure includes active, retired and even honorary membership. The actual number of active officials actually working games is smaller than that.

I certainly don't have any inside information breaking down the racial make-up of the membership, but can offer observational data based on my own experience.

Our typical weekly winter meetings are attended by perhaps 200 individuals. Of those in attendance, my best estimate would be that fewer than ten (and ten is probably on the high side) are black officials.

And this in a city with an African-American population approaching 40%, a city that is often cited as one of the best in the country for presenting a positive atmosphere for minorities in terms of lifestyle and opportunity.

Unless there is some super-secret conspiracy to prevent blacks from joining this association, where the memebership is open to anyone interested, willing to pay the fees, pass the tests and attend the meetings, my observational conclusion would have to be that (in this area, at least) there is not a great interest in baseball umpiring among African-Americans.

I suspect that similar factors may be at work in the arena of professional baseball, of which I admitedly have no first hand knowledge.

This past year, the Ohio High School Athletic Association took steps to increase the number of minority umpires amongst its ranks. Personally, I feel that those efforts were misguided and, quite possibly could be construed as reverse discrimination. But I'll step aside now and save that story for another post.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by BretMan

msavakinas,

I see that your location is listed as "Columbus, Ohio" which is where I live, so quite possibly we are in the same association. I know that our association boasts of 400-plus members. That figure includes active, retired and even honorary membership. The actual number of active officials actually working games is smaller than that.

I certainly don't have any inside information breaking down the racial make-up of the membership, but can offer observational data based on my own experience.

Our typical weekly winter meetings are attended by perhaps 200 individuals. Of those in attendance, my best estimate would be that fewer than ten (and ten is probably on the high side) are black officials.

And this in a city with an African-American population approaching 40%, a city that is often cited as one of the best in the country for presenting a positive atmosphere for minorities in terms of lifestyle and opportunity.

Unless there is some super-secret conspiracy to prevent blacks from joining this association, where the memebership is open to anyone interested, willing to pay the fees, pass the tests and attend the meetings, my observational conclusion would have to be that (in this area, at least) there is not a great interest in baseball umpiring among African-Americans.

I suspect that similar factors may be at work in the arena of professional baseball, of which I admitedly have no first hand knowledge.

This past year, the Ohio High School Athletic Association took steps to increase the number of minority umpires amongst its ranks. Personally, I feel that those efforts were misguided and, quite possibly could be construed as reverse discrimination. But I'll step aside now and save that story for another post.

I

I agree and add that basketball and football have a higher per centage of minority officials.

For the record, the black population of Columbus is just under 25%.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

my point was that do you see alot of african americans working higher level games? do you see them working alot of D1 series in your area? Its an example that was meant to show that alot of the african american umpires in my area aren't trying to move up etc etc, so how could the website expect there to be alot of african americans in MLB? Most of the african americans I see working baseball do kids baseball for the money. I dont see alot of them trying to work higher level varsity and college baseball. I can only think of 1 I know off of the top of my head that works D1 Baseball and I just met him about a month ago. That was my point, I will admit it was not very clearly written before.

I attended the NCAA Baseball Meeting in Indianapolis last year. Many of the umpires were D1 and I was one of the only African-Americans in the room if I remember correctly. Now when I attend the NCAA Basketball Meeting on Saturday, I know the composition in the room will be very different.

And in many cases as someone that has worked college and HS games, I am by far just about the only African-American working. I can count on both hands the number of times I have worked games with other African-Americans in my career. So the issue in my opinion is not just discrimination, it is also participation. I am not so sure there are many African-Americans that even try to go into pro ball if they are not in the other areas of amateur ball.

I did not read all the material in the web site and it sounds more like a bunch of opinions, but that does not mean some of the information is not correct. I just think there is more to the lack of Black umpires in MLB than simply discrimination. And comments like you made earlier does not make me think things have completely changed. You do not have to be a racist to practice stereotypes that can affect opportunity.

Peace

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You do not have to be a racist to practice stereotypes that can affect opportunity.

This is an excellent point, and one that many white folk seem not to get. They search their souls and find no race hatred, and they infer that black folks' perception of inequality of opportunity is a mis-perception (or worse).

But I had to chuckle at the claim that black umpires never make it to the world series, given this year's crew (and not just this year's).

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

For the record, the black population of Columbus is just under 25%.

Yes, I stand corrected.

That figure comes from the 2000 census- now nearly a decade out of date. The most recent figures I could find show the total "non-white" population, not the black population alone, trending upward near 40% and that may be what I was thinking of.

I guess I'd better start researching my posts like I'm writing a college thesis!

That figure aside, I still see relatively few African-American baseball officials in my area, far fewer than than are represented in the population as a whole.

What I have not seen is any evidence of a race-based agenda to dissuade minority candidates from becoming umpires. To the contrary, there have been recent recruiting efforts to add minority umpires to the ranks.

Unfortunately, that effort has involved lowering the standards of training and certification requirements. While this effort may indeed increase the number of minority umpires, I can't see it increasing the number of competent umpires, regardless of race or gender.

(P.S. to msavakinas: I am also in the COBUA and that is the association to which I am refering.)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Unfortunately, that effort has involved lowering the standards of training and certification requirements. While this effort may indeed increase the number of minority umpires, I can't see it increasing the number of competent umpires, regardless of race or gender.

(P.S. to msavakinas: I am also in the COBUA and that is the association to which I am refering.)

I do not think changing standards have to lowering the number of competent officials that are available. Maybe those standards were silly to begin with. I know that in my area, standards were changed to make it easier so officials want to stay in the avocation. And frankly the numbers in baseball are hurting big time in my area. They better do something or there will have all games with one umpire. This is after all the Midwest; the weather during most games is not in the best of conditions. A lot of officials do not want to be outside.

Peace

[ncump7]

Are there only two African-American umpires in MLB?? I think that is not correct.

[BretMan]

If you're pulling data from that web site, note that the article is five years old.