verbal obstruction?

[newump]

R2 leading off 2nd base, F4 yells "back, back" several times in an attempt to confuse the runner into thinking that there is a pick-off play on. verbal obstruction?? how would you handle in FED, NCAA, OBR? this situation occurred in a D3 game. i told F4 to stop and he did. there were no complaints from the other team. what if he had persisted?
thx.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I will only address the last question, as it is late and I am going to bed.

If anyone persists in doing anything I tell them not to do, they are subject to being immediately ejected.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by newump

R2 leading off 2nd base, F4 yells "back, back" several times in an attempt to confuse the runner into thinking that there is a pick-off play on. verbal obstruction?? how would you handle in FED, NCAA, OBR? this situation occurred in a D3 game. i told F4 to stop and he did. there were no complaints from the other team. what if he had persisted?
thx.

This is only covered (by rule) in FED & NCAA. It is not covered by rule in OBR and should not be addressed by the umpire in an OBR game because of this. FED & NCAA have it spelled out so Now you say that this happened in a D3 game? Well, that is NCAA and if all you did was tell the player to stop. you need to go back and read the rule book! We have discussed this enough over the years here and on umpire.org to the point that the repetition is becoming very boring.

Regards

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by newump

R2 leading off 2nd base, F4 yells "back, back" several times in an attempt to confuse the runner into thinking that there is a pick-off play on. verbal obstruction?? how would you handle in FED, NCAA, OBR? this situation occurred in a D3 game. i told F4 to stop and he did. there were no complaints from the other team. what if he had persisted?
thx.

Ignore it in NCAA and higher.

Probably not allowed by rule in FED, but the enforcement will vary based on the norms in your area.

[newump]

why the anger ozzy? i did consult the rule book and could not find this issue specifically addressed. maybe i missed something so that i why i posted my question. obviously, this is something that is handled differently at different levels and different rule sets. i also imagine it depends upon the umps tolerance level. thanks for your "help"

[mbyron]

Oh, don't worry about Ozzy. He'll be fine once the morning meds kick in.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by newump

why the anger ozzy? i did consult the rule book and could not find this issue specifically addressed. maybe i missed something so that i why i posted my question. obviously, this is something that is handled differently at different levels and different rule sets. i also imagine it depends upon the umps tolerance level. thanks for your "help"

No anger at all - as I stated it's been discussed many, many times before.

2007 NCAA
Interference
The act of an offensive player, umpire or nongame person that interferes
with; physically or verbally hinders; confuses; or impedes any fielder
attempting to make a play.

Rule 5-3
Team Offensive Interference

SECTION 3. No offensive team members, either in or out of the lineup,

shall physically or verbally hinder, confuse or impede any defensive player

who is attempting to make a play.

PENALTY—(1) The umpire shall call offensive interference and call out
the runner on whom the play was attempted, or would have
been attempted.

Rule 5-17
Verbal Abuse (Bench Jockeying)
SECTION 17. Game personnel shall not use language that will, in any
manner, refer to or reflect negatively upon opposing players, coaches,

umpires or spectators.

PENALTY—The umpire shall warn the offending individual and the
coach one time. If the verbal abuse continues after the

warning, the offender shall be ejected. If the verbal abuse
continues after the first ejection, the head coach shall be
ejected along with any other offending personnel.

A.R.—An individual ejected for verbal abuse shall not be suspended.


I just get tired of answering the same questions - don't read anything into it.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Ignore it in NCAA and higher.

Sorry Bob, but as you see above, you should not ignore it in NCAA.


FED rules
SECTION 21 INTERFERENCE — OFFENSIVE, UMPIRE, SPECTATOR

ART. 1 ... Offensive interference is an act (physical or verbal) by the team at bat:

a. which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder
attempting to make a play; or
b. when a runner creates malicious contact with any fielder, with or without
the ball, in or out of the baseline; or

c. a coach physically assists a runner during playing action.

SECTION 22 OBSTRUCTION AND FAKE TAG

ART. 1 ... Obstruction is an act (intentional or unintentional, as well as

physical or verbal) by a fielder, any member of the defensive team or its team personnel that hinders a runner or changes the pattern of play as in 5-1-3 and 8-3-2;
or when a catcher or fielder hinders a batter as in 5-1 -2b, 8-1 -1 e, 8-3-1 c and 8-3-2.

ART. 2. . . A fake tag is an act by a defensive player without the ball that

simulates a tag. A fake tag is considered obstruction.

*** As a side note, in 2007, the FED changed Verbal to both Offensive Interference & Defensive Obstruction. ***

Regards & yes..... the meds kicked in an hour ago!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

No anger at all - as I stated it's been discussed many, many times before.

2007 NCAA
Interference
The act of an offensive player, umpire or nongame person that interferes
with; physically or verbally hinders; confuses; or impedes any fielder
attempting to make a play.

Rule 5-3
Team Offensive Interference

SECTION 3. No offensive team members, either in or out of the lineup,

shall physically or verbally hinder, confuse or impede any defensive player

who is attempting to make a play.

PENALTY—(1) The umpire shall call offensive interference and call out
the runner on whom the play was attempted, or would have
been attempted.

Rule 5-17
Verbal Abuse (Bench Jockeying)
SECTION 17. Game personnel shall not use language that will, in any
manner, refer to or reflect negatively upon opposing players, coaches,

umpires or spectators.

PENALTY—The umpire shall warn the offending individual and the
coach one time. If the verbal abuse continues after the

warning, the offender shall be ejected. If the verbal abuse
continues after the first ejection, the head coach shall be
ejected along with any other offending personnel.

A.R.—An individual ejected for verbal abuse shall not be suspended.


I just get tired of answering the same questions - don't read anything into it.


Sorry Bob, but as you see above, you should not ignore it in NCAA.


FED rules
SECTION 21 INTERFERENCE — OFFENSIVE, UMPIRE, SPECTATOR

ART. 1 ... Offensive interference is an act (physical or verbal) by the team at bat:

a. which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder
attempting to make a play; or
b. when a runner creates malicious contact with any fielder, with or without
the ball, in or out of the baseline; or

c. a coach physically assists a runner during playing action.

SECTION 22 OBSTRUCTION AND FAKE TAG

ART. 1 ... Obstruction is an act (intentional or unintentional, as well as

physical or verbal) by a fielder, any member of the defensive team or its team personnel that hinders a runner or changes the pattern of play as in 5-1-3 and 8-3-2;
or when a catcher or fielder hinders a batter as in 5-1 -2b, 8-1 -1 e, 8-3-1 c and 8-3-2.

ART. 2. . . A fake tag is an act by a defensive player without the ball that

simulates a tag. A fake tag is considered obstruction.

*** As a side note, in 2007, the FED changed Verbal to both Offensive Interference & Defensive Obstruction. ***

Regards & yes..... the meds kicked in an hour ago!

Ozzy,

Where in this rule 5-3 that you have cited does it address a defensive player hollering something at a base runner? The rule clearly is addressing violations by offensive team members hindering a defensive player. I can see nothing that you cited that refers to a defensive player. Can you clear this up for me? I admit that I'm not any kind of NCAA rules expert, but I tend to agree with Bob J. on this one.

[MD Longhorn]

It should be noted that F4 merely saying these things is nothing until it affects something. If the runner ignores him, you have nothing. If he actually affects the runner, THEN you could have verbal obstruction, depending on ruleset.

[justanotherblue]

So why have base coaches then?? Although I do understand Fed doesn't think the kids can't play baseball and hence has several poorly written rules and penaltys that protect the batter/offense/runner when absouletly no advantage is gained by the defense. The meer act of saying back I don't agree with being obstruction. The case play sited in Fed deals with deception tactics employed, which I do agree with. If junior listens to F4 or
F5 instead of watching F1 and listening to his coaches he deserves to get picked off. I'm with SDS, which case play, which rule that specifically deals with the simple verbage... back.. back? That's what the coaches are for.

[Rcichon]

Originally Posted by newump

why the anger ozzy? i did consult the rule book and could not find this issue specifically addressed. maybe i missed something so that i why i posted my question. obviously, this is something that is handled differently at different levels and different rule sets. i also imagine it depends upon the umps tolerance level. thanks for your "help"

Ozzy must be low on meds or in between scripts...

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rcichon

Ozzy must be low on meds or in between scripts...

You probably mean 'scrips' -- Ozzy's an actual umpire, he doesn't just play one on TV!

[RPatrino]

How about this? R2, is jockeying back and forth with the F6 and F4. As F1 comes set, F5 starts yelling, 'back, back, back'. R2 dives back into the bag just as batter laces a single into RF. R2 scrambles back to his feet, and is thrown out running trying to score. Or, R2 pulls into 3rd standing, no play.

What do you have?

[Pete in AZ]

How about this? R2, is jockeying back and forth with the F6 and F4. As F1 comes set, F5 starts yelling, 'back, back, back'. R2 dives back into the bag just as batter laces a single into RF. R2 scrambles back to his feet, and is thrown out running trying to score. Or, R2 pulls into 3rd standing, no play.

What do you have?

The ususal, a dumb player and a couple pissed off coaches. Otherwise, I got nothing. I've seen batters cringe and drop on curves that were strikes too. Just because he was dumb doesn't mean I fix it.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

How about this? R2, is jockeying back and forth with the F6 and F4. As F1 comes set, F5 starts yelling, 'back, back, back'. R2 dives back into the bag just as batter laces a single into RF. R2 scrambles back to his feet, and is thrown out running trying to score. Or, R2 pulls into 3rd standing, no play.

What do you have?

Text book verbal obstruction in a FED game. Somewhere in my old e-mails I have an interpretation from Kyle McNeely, a former NFHS rules committee member that explains how and why this should be called in a FED game.


Tim.