verbal obstruction

glshapiro · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 29, 2002, 03:57pm

13-u national AAU tournament, FED Rules. Runner on 2nd and F4 is yelling "back back". I (BU) quietly ask F4 to ease up. I did not get any flack, but coach did ask me why his players could not do this. IMO it could be verbal obstrution, and I put a stop to it. Is this nit picking?
What can the players get away with i.e. dugout yelling I got it! on a pop-up, or step-off to the pitcher?

Umpire_Jeremy · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 29, 2002, 05:02pm

Nope, never heard of verbal obstruction.

FVB_Ryan · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 29, 2002, 06:04pm

I do not recall ever hearing of verbal obstruction, but I have heard of verbal interference, which is what I would label what I think you are talking about. I believe its considered verbal interference (as opposed to obstruction) in any case, regardless of whether the offendor is on offense, defense, on field, off field, etc. Anyone dis/agree??

glshapiro · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 29, 2002, 07:17pm

Yes there is verbal obstruction as well as verbal interference.

Fed 2.22

Obstruction is an act (intentional or unintentional, as well as physical or verbal) by a fielder, any member of the defensive team or its team personel that hinders a runner or changes the pattern of play....

Fed case book 2002--2.21.1

"R1 attempts to steal second. F2, upon receiving the pitch, throws a pop-up to F6. F5 yells "get back, get back." R1 thinks B2 has hit a pop-up and starts back to first where he is tagged out.

Ruling: This is verbal obstruction and R1 shall be awarded second base.

What I am looking for is guidelines on what can or can not be said. Does it very with the level or age of the players?

kbaerslt · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 29, 2002, 07:18pm

i think this falls under the same play as a fake tag in fed rules. i liked the way you handled it by telling the kid to tone it down.

blarson · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 29, 2002, 07:47pm

Quote:

Originally posted by glshapiro
What I am looking for is guidelines on what can or can not be said. Does it very with the level or age of the players?

I think you handled it well. He hindered him by yelling back. That's your judgement. Coach wants to know why he can't do that? In youth ball my answer is. "Coach at higher levels that kinda bush crap is self enforced (aka bean balls etc.). There is no room for that in a youth game so we enforce it."

Bob

Umpire_Jeremy · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 29, 2002, 08:01pm

Can you give me rule reference for OBR?

blarson · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 29, 2002, 08:21pm

His game was played under FED rules and they do have this covered. So in his game good call.

As for OBR, when doing a LL game, I'll hide behind 9.01c. I mean, EJ a kid for throwing a bat is not in the OBR and LL supports an ejection for that under 9.01c. With the 1 game suspension it seems harsh so I take a twist out of something a wise umpire once told me. I ask the coach if he can sub for the kid before the next at bat. Smart coach is appreciative of my efforts to not EJ.

I don't think in higher levels of ball this would be up to you to enforce though. Bean balls and metal cleats would take care of it. I must say that's an unqualified opinion because I don't do those levels of ball.

Bob

PeteBooth · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 29, 2002, 08:48pm

Originally posted by Umpire_Jeremy

Can you give me rule reference for OBR?

There is no such animal as Verbal Obtsruction in OBR. It only exists in FED.

From Carl Childress's 2002 BRD page 175 Play 141-332

R1,R3: F1 pauses in the set position. From the defensive first-base dugout, someone yells "BACK" R1 reacts by diving towards first. As r1 scrambles back, F1 throws wildly toward third, with the ball ricocheting off the fence and heading for the bullpen. As F5 and F7 chase the ball, R3 scores. Meanwhile, R1 gets up and advances around second base but is thrown out on a close play at third with F6 covering..

RULING:
In FED, r1 was "verbally" obstructed. The obstruction clearly made the difference in the play at third so the out is cancelled, with r1 remaining on third.

In NCAA / OBR, R1 was simply gullable: He should know the difference between his coach's voice and voices of the defense. His out stands.

Now in FED, if the runner had been out a long way at third, then the umpire should rule that the runner tried to advance beyond a base he would have received on the obstruction, which in this play is second.

Pete Booth

Whowefoolin · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 30, 2002, 12:20am

Do not be an anal umpire. Adjudge by the rules. Don't go looking for things. If it is a problem, the coach will let you know. Then ask him what rule he is referencing? Let the game play. If it happens to be piss poor gamemanship, bad luck on you part. But don't be anal.

BTW...did we see if the bats were properly in there place and all buckets put away. Give me a break! Play ball!!!

ozzy6900 · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 30, 2002, 06:10am

Quote:

Originally posted by Whowefoolin
Do not be an anal umpire. Adjudge by the rules. Don't go looking for things. If it is a problem, the coach will let you know. Then ask him what rule he is referencing? Let the game play. If it happens to be piss poor gamemanship, bad luck on you part. But don't be anal.

BTW...did we see if the bats were properly in there place and all buckets put away. Give me a break! Play ball!!!

So what you are saying is we wait for the coaches to tell us that there is a problem?

So when the pitcher in the wind-up (FED rules) steps & throws to first I wait for the coach to call it?

So when The batter grazes the pitch and the catcher fields it clean for a foul tip, I wait for the coach to call it?

So when R1 slides into the pivot man @2nd with his nails up and opens up the guy's shin I wait for the coach to call it?

Now who's being anal?

It's our job to call the game rules. FED has more rules to the game than OBR. Some of them seem stupid but we have to call them just the same. My friend, if you wait for the coaches to call the shots, I don't ever want to be on the field with you!!!!!!!!!!

Bfair · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 30, 2002, 08:59am

Quote:

Originally posted by glshapiro
13-u national AAU tournament, FED Rules. Runner on 2nd and F4 is yelling "back back". I (BU) quietly ask F4 to ease up. I did not get any flack, but coach did ask me why his players could not do this. IMO it could be verbal obstrution, and I put a stop to it. Is this nit picking?
What can the players get away with i.e. dugout yelling I got it! on a pop-up, or step-off to the pitcher?

Verbal obstruction is only supported in rule by the Fed.
There is no "verbal obstruction" under OBR.

It's your judgment as to whether verbal obstruction exists. I would not consider this verbal obstruction---even if a coach complains. I've never seen a player return due to an opposing player's yell of "back". Still, you may judge as you wish. IMO, you're looking up your nostril here and about to find a booger. That's my judgment.

Just my opinion,

Freix

Tim C · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 30, 2002, 10:26am

I ALWAYS comment when I agree with Steve since it is not very often.

FEDlandia has decreed that it is an issue therefore there is a rule.

OBR (for players of shaving age) has decreed that there is no problem. If a player is gullible then so be it.

Any umpire (working OBR with players that shave)that would consider 9.01 (c) to cover this is being overly officious.

I agree completely with bFair on this one occasion. :-}

Whowefoolin · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 30, 2002, 11:33am

OZZY,

What I am saying, is if it is not in the rule book, don't go out looking to create "stuff".

FED rules or not, don't go looking for dirt. I guy steals second base. Second baseman says foul ball, so the runner listens to him and goes back to first, where he is tagged out along the way. Are you going to stop the game and call verbal instruction and award the runner second anyway because he (probably a 17 year old) does not know to only listen to an umpire or base coach?

What will the audience think? Now you are going to have to explain why you are awarding him second base AFTER he was caught of the bag and tagged! Tell me how you get out of this? I will tell you...by not being anal and letting the kids play. There is no rule about that, so why make one up...and then try to enforce it!!!

So be my guess, friend, be anal and call everything you think is UNFAIR, not just the rules. We will be there for about 4 hours trying to finish a game while making everyone HAPPY!!!

Bfair · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 31, 2002, 03:40am

Quote:

Originally posted by Whowefoolin
OZZY,

What I am saying, is if it is not in the rule book, don't go out looking to create "stuff".

FED rules or not, don't go looking for dirt. I guy steals second base. Second baseman says foul ball, so the runner listens to him and goes back to first, where he is tagged out along the way. Are you going to stop the game and call verbal instruction and award the runner second anyway because he (probably a 17 year old) does not know to only listen to an umpire or base coach?

What will the audience think? Now you are going to have to explain why you are awarding him second base AFTER he was caught of the bag and tagged! Tell me how you get out of this? I will tell you...by not being anal and letting the kids play. There is no rule about that, so why make one up...and then try to enforce it!!!

So be my guess, friend, be anal and call everything you think is UNFAIR, not just the rules. We will be there for about 4 hours trying to finish a game while making everyone HAPPY!!!

There are Fed rules we may like and those we may not like. In those we don't like we may attempt to let our judgment sway away from enforcing the rule the way the Fed would like us to. Yet, there are times when we are hit over the head with the rule and can't ignore it. The Fed has verbal obstruction, and I don't see how you could NOT enforce verbal obstruction in the example you provide should this runner be tagged out. IMO, you just got hit over the head.

It might be best to intervene with preventative officiating and advise the runner that the ball was not a foul, thus causing him to stay at 2B and not allowing verbal obstruction to come into play. If the defender causes an issue by complaining about your intervention, call the verbal obstruction, and award the runner 3B. Afterall, the runner already had 2B when the defender committed the verbal obstruction, correct? He must be awarded one base beyond his current base, correct? The rules will support your award, and the verbal obstruction will disappear from the game. As long as you've got the issue now raised by the defender, you might as well get it right. A correct call is easier to defend than an incorrect call. Still, I'd recommend trying to avoid the issue by nipping it in the bud. It's likely never to become an issue.

The Fed is anal regarding verbal obstruction as evidenced by the most ridiculous caseplay I've ever seen written. From the Fed 2001 website:

SITUATION 14:

RULING:

Did these idiot runners stay at their bases because F4 yelled "I got it?"
Cannot the runners see when the ball is hit that it's a groundball?
Did they not know they are forced to advance?
They obviously didn't hear an infield fly called!!!!
So...where are the base coaches on this play to protect these idiots?

Still, the Fed protects the runners (and apparently coaches) against their own felony stupidity should it occur---the same way it should be done in your example if you're calling by Fed rules. Don't let it occur.

Just my opinion,

Freix