Batting out of order

[JugglingReferee]

On the sports report, I heard that the HP umpire had never had a BOO incident in his entire MLB career, which if true, is probably what prompted the conference. Example: I've done football for 12 years, and I've only ever had 1 illegal participation flag. I was unsure how to apply that penalty: I needed help from my crew.

[greymule]

I heard that the HP umpire had never had a BOO incident in his entire MLB career

I didn't even consider that angle. He probably knew the rule once, but never having been confronted with the situation, forgot how to rule on it. I know that could happen to me.

[BJFan]

I was present at the game yesterday and registered to join this discussion. I'm a fan and rat so admittedly I don't know much when it comes to rule technicalities and don't know what an OBR is (I was the only person it seemed at the game who had any clue what was going on although my first instinct was that Russ Adams was in the lineup in place of Aaron Hill, and it wasn't a BOO situation, this happened earlier in the season with John McDonald and Royce Clayton).

What happened was John Gibbons intended to have Lyle Overbay bat before Aaron Hill. This was the line-up posted in the dugout and on the screen at the Dome. The line-up provided to the umpires and the opposing manager had Hill before Overbay. What I found most interesting was that Hill and Gibbons didn't argue the call at all (I joined the boo birds though). Gibby admitted he signed the card without checking it and took responsibility for the error.

Here's where I get confused.

Overbay obviously batted out of order. Hill then followed, also out of order. I'm having trouble with the logic of the out being charged to Zaun. Are you saying that the order does not depend on the numerical sequence of batters in the inning, but rather who would naturally follow the actual batter? I would think, logically, that the error was having the wrong person batting in the 7 spot (Hill for Overbay), but some of you seem to be saying that the error was not having the correct person follow Overbay (Zaun) in the 8 spot. What I figured was that if the Jays figured out the mistake they could have Overbay bat for the second time in the inning. What you folks seem to be saying is that once the wrong person bats, the next person who should bat is the person following this batter, providing the opposing team does not discover the mistake. Hypothetically then, if Zaun came up after Overbay and had a pitch thrown to him, effectively skipping Aaron Hill altogether, would the Jays be fine because they would get back into order?

I know that all sounds confusing, so if nobody can understand what I am asking please let me know and I'll try again.

[ManInBlue]

BJ - first OBR is the Official Baseball Rules (those by which MLB plays). These rules do differ slightly on some subjects from FED (National Federation/high School) and NCAA.

On the BOO - the proper batter should be called out, if the defense appeals the BOO prior to the first pitch to the next batter (or prior to any play). Once that first pitch is thrown, the wrong batter has become legal. And yes that means skip Hill in this case until his next time at bat. Since Overby batted then Hill got a hit - Hill is out of turn - Zaun follows Overby. Overby's at bat was legalized by the first pitch to Hill. Thus whoever follows Overby (Zaun) is the correct batter. Zaun should have been called out (for BOO) and whoever followed him in the order should have batted next (Hill removed from 2B obviously).

Once the Illegal actions are made legal, then the numerical sequence no longer matters - it matters only who follows the actual batter. When the appeal is made is the key to this rule, and understanding it.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by fitump56

Because talent and rules knowledge aren't what gets you to MLB in the first place.

I think you're right. You have to have talent and rules knowledge but, by no means, do you have to be the best in these areas to rise through the ranks.

There are certainly other factors. Personality ... politics ... friends in high places ... game management skills ... etc.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

I think you're right. You have to have talent and rules knowledge but, by no means, do you have to be the best in these areas to rise through the ranks.

There are certainly other factors. Personality ... politics ... friends in high places ... game management skills ... etc.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

David, anyone, is there re-testing of rules, mechanics or other knowledge sets after you make it to the Bigs?

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by fitump56

David, anyone, is there re-testing of rules, mechanics or other knowledge sets after you make it to the Bigs?

I have limited knowledge of this, but no, there is no "re-testing"

They meet every year prior to the season (in early Feb). At which time I think they cover some rules, etc. They don't cover mechanics so much (from what I've been told). I got the feeling it's more of a "OK guys, here's your crew, the season's not far off...Thanks for coming have a safe trip home" meeting.

The brings up another question - What affect do the evaluations have on their status? Can MLB send them back down? I would think that the union would not allow that. Also, what kind of affect does the union have on keeping "sub par" officials? Do they have an intervention? "Dude, you're kicking calls like they stole from you. Tighten up or your out."

[BJFan]

Thanks for the explanation MIB. I am still having trouble with a few things. You had stated that Hill should be removed from 2B. Why exactly is that? He just missed his turn and was not really replaced by anyone. You also say the out should be charged to Zaun for BOO. In actuality, Hill was the one batting in Zaun's place (with Overbay's at-bat being legalized by the pitch to Hill) - so how exactly is Zaun BOO, it's still Hill commiting the act, no?

On the screen at the Dome they charged Hill with an at-bat. Assuming Zaun was properly charged with the out, why must his average suffer for the error? Also, why wipe-out the double? In the same way statistics count should an inning not count due to something like a suspended game, why can't Zaun get some credit for the hit? Does the pitcher have the pitches wiped from his strike-ball count as well?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by BJFan

Thanks for the explanation MIB. I am still having trouble with a few things. You had stated that Hill should be removed from 2B. Why exactly is that? He just missed his turn and was not really replaced by anyone. You also say the out should be charged to Zaun for BOO. In actuality, Hill was the one batting in Zaun's place (with Overbay's at-bat being legalized by the pitch to Hill) - so how exactly is Zaun BOO, it's still Hill committing the act, no?

On the screen at the Dome they charged Hill with an at-bat. Assuming Zaun was properly charged with the out, why must his average suffer for the error? Also, why wipe-out the double? In the same way statistics count should an inning not count due to something like a suspended game, why can't Zaun get some credit for the hit? Does the pitcher have the pitches wiped from his strike-ball count as well?

The screen on the Dome should not have charged Hill with an AB, and Zaun was not out for batting out of order himself, he was out for Hill batting out of order when Zaun was supposed to bat. The act being punished is Zaun failing to hit in his spot.

Here is the simplified version of the BOO rule as it applies here.:

Whoever was supposed to be batting at the time Batting Out of Order is brought to the attention of the umpire is the player that is called out. If Zaun was supposed to have batted, then he is called out, and Hill, who batted out of order, is removed from the base for his illegal at bat. Make any sense yet?

This is what the rule says:

6.07 comment: There are two fundamentals to keep in mind: When a player bats out of turn, the proper batter is the player called out. If an improper batter bats and reaches base or is out and no appeal is made before a pitch to the next batter, or before any play or attempted play, that improper batter is considered to have batted in proper turn and establishes the order that is to follow.

Zaun is charged with an at bat according to the scoring rules (which we umpires really don't care much about anyway), the putout goes to the catcher, and everything to do with the improper batter (Hill) reaching base safely is ignored. See rule 10.03d

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The screen on the Dome should not have charged Hill with an AB.

In fantasy land, I suppose you're right. However, the on-field crew apparently erred in their application of the rule. Do you expect that a Dome employee be able to provide the correct ruling on batting out of order?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

In fantasy land, I suppose you're right. However, the on-field crew apparently erred in their application of the rule. Do you expect that a Dome employee be able to provide the correct ruling on batting out of order?

No, I was just trying to establish that Hill should not be charged with an at-bat. I certainly don't imagine too many scoreboard operators know rule 6.07 by heart.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by fitump56
David, anyone, is there re-testing of rules, mechanics or other knowledge sets after you make it to the Bigs?

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

I have limited knowledge of this, but no, there is no "re-testing"

They meet every year prior to the season (in early Feb). At which time I think they cover some rules, etc. They don't cover mechanics so much (from what I've been told). I got the feeling it's more of a "OK guys, here's your crew, the season's not far off...Thanks for coming have a safe trip home" meeting.

Isn't that just dandy.

The brings up another question - What affect do the evaluations have on their status? Can MLB send them back down? I would think that the union would not allow that. Also, what kind of affect does the union have on keeping "sub par" officials? Do they have an intervention? "Dude, you're kicking calls like they stole from you. Tighten up or your out."

I have never heard od an umpire being sent back down except when they were st00pid enough to follow Richie Phillips who one said “Umpires don’t have a stat line. That’s why they all think they’re the best. And it’s a good thing they feel that way.”

http://www.roadsidephotos.com/baseball/bb99-5.htm

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The screen on the Dome should not have charged Hill with an AB,

Like that should matter.

[BJFan]

Thanks again for the explanation.

Can we expect MLB to get the stats right and charge Zaun with the AB and credit Hill with an ofer, or would that require an official protest by the Jays (which obviously will not happen)?

I read the rule last night and what I found most interesting is that any players who advanced during the illegal AB (by way of passed-ball, WP, steal, etc.) do not have to go back to where they were had the AB not happened.

MLB Gameday also got it wrong, but I would imagine they'd just follow the incorrect umpires ruling which is technically the "official" ruling.

[Forest Ump]

I have always thought that what is written in the J/R is a great way to determine the last legal batter in BOO appeals.

When an at bat has just been completed and the defense appeals that the offense has BOO, the plate umpire should:

1. Determine which players were the last two players to bat.

2. Acknowledge that the second last player to bat was (and always is) legal due to the pitch or pitches made to the player who batted after him.

3. Locate the second last batter's name on the lineup card. The player following him on the line up card is the proper batter; such proper batter was responsible for taking his place at bat as the last batter. [6.02a] If any other player batted, he was improper.

I have explained this to several people in my association and have gotten back glassy eyed stares. I don't know why. This makes great sense to me because it determines the last legal batter. Once that is established the penalties are easy to enforce.