Batting out of order

[ptman]

Today's Mariner-Blue Jay game: Bottom of second inning. Due up for Jays -- Hill, Overbay, Zaun. Overbay leads off instead of Hill and flies out. (One out) Hill then bats and doubles. Mariners now appeal improper batter.
According to the reports I have read, umpires called Hill out (two outs), and Zaun then came up to bat and struck out. (Three outs)

The Associated Press report erroneously claims that Overbay then batted ahead of Hill for the remainder of the game. Not true.

My interpretation of the "batting-out-of-order" rule (6.07): Overbay was an improper batter. When a pitch was thrown to Hill, Overbay's at bat was legalized and the next proper batter was Zaun. So now Hill is the improper batter. When the Mariners timely appealed Hill's improper at bat, the umpire should have called the "proper batter", i.e. Zaun, out. The next batter should have been McDonald, who followed Zaun in the lineup.

Why is this rule so confusing to umpires?

[greymule]

Why is this rule so confusing to umpires?

I thought maybe these umps were fresh from Fed or ASA, which handle BOO differently. Except that in the case you describe, the ruling would be the same: Overbay made legal on the pitch to Hill, Zaun thus the proper batter. On the appeal, Zaun out, Hill taken off base, and McDonald the next batter.

If the umps actually ruled the way you say they did, it's an inexcusable lack of knowledge of the rule.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by greymule

Why is this rule so confusing to umpires?

I thought maybe these umps were fresh from Fed or ASA, which handle BOO differently. Except that in the case you describe, the ruling would be the same: Overbay made legal on the pitch to Hill, Zaun thus the proper batter. On the appeal, Zaun out, Hill taken off base, and McDonald the next batter.

If the umps actually ruled the way you say they did, it's an inexcusable lack of knowledge of the rule.

I don't find the umpires' mistake as surprising as the fact that the batters batted out of order.

Umpires make mistakes all the time - even on applications. (Remember the 1st and 3rd, fly ball, appeal play, that caused the umpires to put a run back up on the board later in the game?)

Yet, major league players, batting out of order, is much more rare.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by greymule

Why is this rule so confusing to umpires?

I thought maybe these umps were fresh from Fed or ASA, which handle BOO differently. Except that in the case you describe, the ruling would be the same: Overbay made legal on the pitch to Hill, Zaun thus the proper batter. On the appeal, Zaun out, Hill taken off base, and McDonald the next batter.

If the umps actually ruled the way you say they did, it's an inexcusable lack of knowledge of the rule.

I was watching the game and yes the umpires ruled it exactly like the original post says. I was very surprised. When the umpires were discussing it, the Blue Jays announcers were saying that Hill would be ruled out and Zaun would bat. The umpires screw the call and make the announcers seem like they know the rule.

BTW, it was the second time in 18 years that the Blue Jays committed that mistake (BOO). It happened to me a few weeks ago for the first time im my five years of umpiring experience.

[greymule]

How can you get to the Major Leagues and not know how to handle BOO? And four guys unable to get a BOO call right?

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by greymule

How can you get to the Major Leagues and not know how to handle BOO? And four guys unable to get a BOO call right?

Because talent and rules knowledge aren't what gets you to MLB in thei first place.

[t-rex]

Was this an error by the umpires, or by the official scorer and the Blue Jays?

The MLB Gameday report for the bottom of the second has this reported as a ground out by Hill to the catcher. Of course, it should have been recorded as a putout of Zaun by the catcher.

The next batter, as we all know, should be McDonald. Would the umpires tell Toronto who to send to the plate next, or do they remain silent to the fact that Toronto is still BOO?

[greymule]

Would the umpires tell Toronto who to send to the plate next?

If they called Hill out instead of Zaun, I'm not sure I'd trust their judgment as to the proper batter.

There's a question for you. The umpires erroneously inform the offense that Abel is the proper batter, and then the defense appeals after Abel hits a home run.

"Another nice mess."

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by t-rex

Was this an error by the umpires, or by the official scorer and the Blue Jays?

The MLB Gameday report for the bottom of the second has this reported as a ground out by Hill to the catcher. Of course, it should have been recorded as a putout of Zaun by the catcher.

The next batter, as we all know, should be McDonald. Would the umpires tell Toronto who to send to the plate next, or do they remain silent to the fact that Toronto is still BOO?

The home plate umpire pointed to Hill and gave the out signaled. They just goofed. Nothing else.

[ptman]

An interesting question here is whether the official scoring of the game will be changed to reflect that Zaun actually made two outs in a 1-2-3 inning. I wonder if that is a first in MLB. I know it is not a first in organized sports.

This past season, my daughter struck out in a softball game. As she was walking back to the bench, her teammates told her it was only two strikes, not three. She returned to the plate and the next pitch was a strike. She turned again to go to the bench and the umpire asked where she was going. When she explained, the umpires conferred and called her out for batting out of order. Their rationale: her first at bat resulted in a strike out. When she returned for one more pitch, she was batting out of order and therefore was out again. The umpires did not know that the incorrect batter could be replaced by the correct batter before the end of the at bat. (I wasn't there, fortunately, so I couldn't embarass my daughter by "helping" the umpires with the rules.)

Believe it or not, this mistake occurs repeatedly at these lower levels. For the situations we have been talking about in this post, the rules in MLB and Federation (baseball and softball) are the same. There are some minor differences regarding when an appeal is too late. But under all these rules, the proper batter can always be inserted before the end of the at-bat, and the proper batter is always the one put out when a timely appeal is made. We need to do a better job educating the brethren on this.

In my association, the interpreter always makes a dramatic presentation on the BOO rule. Each year he says that we all should get down on our knees and pray before each game that BOO does not occur. He claims it is a most confusing rule. I am convinced that he has successfully persuaded 75% or more of our members that they cannot understand the rule. That perception has thus become reality. I am clueless why he does this.

The BOO rule is about as simple as it can be. Call the "proper batter" out when a timely appeal is made, and get the next batter who follows the proper batter to the plate.

[greymule]

The BOO rule is about as simple as it can be.

Except that different codes handle it differently. Fed differs from OBR, for example. What code does your association operate under?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by greymule

The BOO rule is about as simple as it can be.

Except that different codes handle it differently. Fed differs from OBR, for example. What code does your association operate under?

I think the only difference is whether outs made by the imporper batter putting the ball in play stand. It's no more "different" than other rules, and is realtively simple one an umpire realizes that it should be called "Being Too Stupid To Bat When It's Your Turn."

[greymule]

I think the only difference is whether outs made by the improper batter putting the ball in play stand.

True, and this applies only to runners, not the batter.

There may be another difference, depending on how Fed interprets "the time of the pitch": Bases loaded, no outs. Abel is the proper batter but Baker bats out of order. Ball 4 to Baker caroms off F2's shinguard and into the dugout. All runners move up a base, and Baker proceeds to 1B. The defense then appeals the BOO.

In OBR, Baker is out [edited to say: actually Abel is out, Baker bats again . . . duh!; see next post], but the runners are permitted the advance, not on the base on balls, but on the pitch that went into DBT. I don't know how Fed would treat this play, but in ASA softball any advance made on the last pitch to the batter is nullified, no matter how such advance came about. (In another difference, ASA softball also gives the defense any out made on the improper batter.)

Regardless, all codes I know would treat the Blue Jays–Mariners incident the same way.

[ptman]

Originally Posted by greymule

There may be another difference, depending on how Fed interprets "the time of the pitch": Bases loaded, no outs. Abel is the proper batter but Baker bats out of order. Ball 4 to Baker caroms off F2's shinguard and into the dugout. All runners move up a base, and Baker proceeds to 1B. The defense then appeals the BOO.

In OBR, Baker is out.

I think you meant Baker is removed, Abel is out, and Baker is now the batter.

Under Fed rules, an appeal is lost even if no pitch is thrown if the defense initiates a play. OBR does not expressly qualify losing the appeal on a play initiated by the defense. It says "before any play or attempted play." If an improper batter singles and then tries to steal before any pitch is thrown to the next batter, and the pitcher steps off and throws to second, under Fed the appeal is still alive. Is that true under OBR?

[greymule]

I think you meant Baker is removed, Abel is out, and Baker is now the batter.

Yes, thanks. Uh . . . just testing to see whether people are paying attention!


Under Fed rules, an appeal is lost even if no pitch is thrown if the defense initiates a play. OBR does not expressly qualify losing the appeal on a play initiated by the defense. It says "before any play or attempted play." If an improper batter singles and then tries to steal before any pitch is thrown to the next batter, and the pitcher steps off and throws to second, under Fed the appeal is still alive. Is that true under OBR?

If memory serves, you're right about Fed on this matter. But in OBR, any play after the end of continuing action (like the attempted steal in your scenario), whether initiated by offense or defense, cancels the right to appeal. 6.07(b) [in my 2001 book]