batting out of order

[scyguy]

top of inning, sixth place hitter is due up, but seventh place batter bats and reaches first. Sixth place hitter enters box, defense appeals. Sixth place hitter is declared out and we bring seventh place hitter, who is on first, back to bat. Correct?

Now, same scenario with appeal made after first pitch to sixth place hitter. Improper batter becomes proper batter. Since he is the sixth place batter's actions are now legal, the batting order should pick up with the name following the legalized improper batter. The problem is that this batter is at first base. After the legalized improper batter's time at bat is completed, do we skip down to the eighth place hitter and leave the seventh place hitter on base?

[Dentonump]

Correct on first scenario.

On the second you are close. The first pitch makes the runner at first (#7) legal not the batter at home plate (#6). Runner #7 stays on first base, batter #6 is skipped, and #8 is up with whatever count was on #6.

[Edited by Dentonump on Apr 7th, 2005 at 02:48 PM]

[largeone59]

Just to make sure i'm getting this right, i'll put some names up to make it clear...

The order is:

6th- Mike
7th- Fred
8th- Bob

Situation: Mike is due up, but Fred bats instead and singles. Mike comes to bat and (a) defense appeals immediately or (b) defense appeals after pitch to Mike.

Ruling: (a) Proper batter (Mike) is declared out, and Fred comes off first and is now the proper batter.

(b) The pitched legalized Fred's single, so Bob is now the proper batter.


Correct?

[mbyron]

Originally posted by largeone59
Just to make sure i'm getting this right, i'll put some names up to make it clear...

The order is:

6th- Mike
7th- Fred
8th- Bob

Situation: Mike is due up, but Fred bats instead and singles. Mike comes to bat and (a) defense appeals immediately or (b) defense appeals after pitch to Mike.

Ruling: (a) Proper batter (Mike) is declared out, and Fred comes off first and is now the proper batter.

(b) The pitched legalized Fred's single, so Bob is now the proper batter.


Correct?

Yes. Mike leaves the plate, Bob inherits his count (1 ball or 1 strike).

[Saltydog]

In sitch A, Fred comes back from 1st to bat; what about any runners that advanced as a result of his 'previous' hit? does a DR take his place on base? Or is it as if he never batted? Also, I'm assuming that if he had made an out the out however would stand? And in that case would he still come up to bat?
SD

[UmpJM]

Saltydog,

(This is according to OBR; don't know if FED differs.)

Basically, the rule says that any advances or outs by baserunners which occur during the improper batter's at bat which are not the result of the batter's actions in becoming a runner are allowed to stand, regardless of whether or not the defense properly appeals the BOOT.

Any advances or outs which occur as a result of the batter's actions in becoming a runner (including the batter runner's out, if he is out on the play) are nullified if the defense properly appeals the BOOT and a single out is charged against the proper batter. (I think there is a significant difference in FED in that outs obtained by the defense on a play where the batter became a runner stand and only advances are nullified if the defense properly appeals the BOOT. But I'm really not sure.)

Some examples (again, under OBR):

We have Fred (7th) coming to bat when Mike (6th) is the proper batter, and Bob (8th) follows Fred in the batting lineup.

Just for fun, let's say we also have Able at 2B and Baker at 1B when Fred comes to bat (they were both proper batters, so Fred is the first "improper batter").

With the count 2-1 on Fred, Able steals 3B and is safe. The pitch was a ball, making the count 3-1.

On the next pitch:

A. The pitcher calls ball four and awards Fred 1B on a base on balls, forcing Baker to 2B. After Fred reaches 1B, the defense requests time and appeals the BOOT. Mike (the proper batter who didn't bat) is called out, Fred is removed from 1B (improper batter), Baker is returned to 1B (advanced due to Fred's base on balls), but Able remains at 3B (advanced during the at bat, not due to Fred's action in becoming a runner). We now wait to see who the offense is going to send to the plate. At this point, the proper batter is Fred, so if someone else comes to the plate, we have the potential for another BOOT.

or,

B. Fred hits a fly ball to deep center which is legally caught by the F8. Able and Baker both legally retouch on the catch and attempt to advance. Able scores, but Baker is thrown out on a close tag play at 2B. If the defense subsequently appeals Fred's BOOT, Able is returned to 3B, nullifying his score, Baker is returned to 1B, nullifying his out, and Mike is declared out, nullifying the out on the catch of Fred's fair batted ball to CF. If the defense does not appeal the BOOT before the first pitch to the next batter, then the run scores and the outs on both Baker and Fred stand.

Obviously, these are not exhaustive examples and there are thousands of different permutations.

Hope this helps.

JM

[Edited by CoachJM on May 8th, 2005 at 03:28 AM]

[cowbyfan1]

In Fed it is the same as OBR. If a runner steals during the inproper batter, they are not returned. Only if they advance due to a hit, walk, error, tag up, etc.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by cowbyfan1
In Fed it is the same as OBR.

Not quite accurate. In FED any outs made, stand.

[Thom Coste]

Originally posted by GarthB

Not quite accurate. In FED any outs made, stand.

Right. In B, Able is returned to third, Mike is out, Baker's out at second stands, Fred becomes the proper batter. Be wary that this could be a time play if there was one out at the time Fred batted. If the out is made before the run scores, the defense just may want to NOT appeal and see what happens next inning. They could get another free out, depending on who comes to bat. If the run scores before Baker's out at second, a proper appeal would take the run off the board and end the inning.

[Saltydog]

CoachJM,
Thanks for another good answer/lesson in baseball, and OBR is what I was looking for. I'm in a Cal Ripken league here in CT. As an oh-by-th-way, I really found you post on interference instructive too and will use in training our umps. We use HSers as our umpires in minors... pay them too:-). Most are good, all are willing to learn. They sometimes get sandwiched between the Coaches, so I really loved your tongue in cheek about Coaches making up the rules. All our Coaches played ball in a galaxy far far away, in a time long long ago, and what WE remember, we remember as gospel. (Note the WE, as in me too) As the Commish, my favorite line became, "yes, but look in the book". I always and still do look look to the ump as the 'fount of knowledge'... that's why I prowl this forum. However, with my HS guys, I also tell them there is no shame in pulling out the book to check... since they don't have the experience. Forces the Coaches to take there's out too. Good training for ALCON.
Thanks again, and to the rest of you as well.
SD
Someone mentioned a few threads back that it seemed that fans were becoming more civil. Maybe the sharing of knowledge/experiences in places like this forum is increasing the professionalism of our sport as well as the quality and consistency and that's being noticed.

[UmpJM]

Saltydog,

You're quite welcome and thank you for your complimentary remarks regarding my interference post.

Unfortunately, and to my chagrin, Coaches do make up rules all the time. Since I've discovered the existence of boards such as this (and actually bothered to read the rulebook) I find that I do so much less frequently than I use to. I hope to continue to improve in this regard and offer my heartfelt gratitude to the knowledgeable umpires who generously share their time and knowledge in bothering to post on these boards to assist those of us who are less knowledgeable.

Sincerely,

JM