Got in trouble for this ejection

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by edhern

Thanks for the spirited discussion. Since I started the thread and based on the discussion, here are my final thoughts.

Regarding the ejection:
After the play, the manager anounces out loud something to the effect of "now we have time for another inning." To me that is showing up the umpire and throwing in my face what he did. This is an ejection in my mind and I bet the majority of those out there would have tossed the manager.

Time limit:
It is no inning can start after, the inning goes to completion, not a drop dead time. He has the opportunity to score and win the game. If the batter hit the next pitch into a double play, the next inning starts. Don't say I was looking to get out of there early. In fact, the game afterwards received one start time and really started three minutes later. We gave them three minutes and at 12:27 am (yes, a.m.) we started a new inning without sticking to the original time limit and finished the game at 12:55 a.m. (don't ask about the scheduling). So there was a perfect time to end the game by rule at 12:27 and we didn't.

Now interpreting the rule:
The only thing that is clear is that there is no rule. I will stand by my interpretation and feel I can make a reasonable argument for what I did. A reasonable argument. Only my association can make a determination on how to deal with what happened. Both the President and Umpire-in-Chief did not say what I did was necessarily wrong, but took the politically safe way out regarding their relationship with the account and I took one for the team without asking for an appeal.

My view of the rules as it pertains:
1.02 The objective of each team is to win by scoring more runs than the opponent.
The team was not trying to win by scoring more runs and thus not fulfilling the objective of the game.

4.15 A game may be forfeited to the opposing team when a team:
(b) Employs tactics palpably designed to delay or shorten the game;
Again, in my opinion, he had the opportunity to win the game if he played on. The manager chose to deliberately delay the end of the game for whatever purpose went through his mind.

9.01

(c) Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules.
This is clearly not covered in specifically in the rules and this was my interpretation.


9.04 (a) The umpire in chief shall stand behind the catcher. (He usually is called the plate umpire.) His duties shall be to:
(1) Take full charge of, and be responsible for, the proper conduct of the game;

In my opinion, this was not proper conduct of the game.

If this was a court of law it would require case law to decide and there is none because this type of situation with time limits is not covered by MLB rules. There is no resolution only opinions, once again, thanks for yours.

Ed H

I feel compeled to chime in on this discussion. Firstly, you take it upon yourself to make up your own rules, and apply them as you saw fit. Secondly, you fall back on 9.01c as a backup. Quite lame of you, if you ask me. And thirdly, I disagree with what the manager did, but it is fully within the rules, (as has been shown earlier in this thread), and then you decide he's "showing
up the umpire and throwing in my face what he did". How rabbit-eared of you.
Possibly, this situation is not covered in the OBR for the simple reason that it is NOT illegal. Nice of you to solicit input, and then try to argue everyone down when they disagree with what you have done.

[jicecone]

Ed,

Bottom line here is, you keep trying to justify your actions with rules that don't apply to a rule that doesn't exist in OBR.

You imply that you were in no hurry to get out of there but ,because it was not under your conditions then things were different. In your own mind, you were offended because he was able to extend the game within the confines of the rules.

If you truly took what the coach said personal ,then you are going to have problems with higher level ball. Believe me, this won't be your only mistake officiating, I GUARANTEE THAT. Learn from it.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by edhern

Time limit:


Now interpreting the rule:
The only thing that is clear is that there is no rule.

Incorrect.

I will stand by my interpretation and feel I can make a reasonable argument for what I did. A reasonable argument. Only my association can make a determination on how to deal with what happened. Both the President and Umpire-in-Chief did not say what I did was necessarily wrong, but took the politically safe way out regarding their relationship with the account and I took one for the team without asking for an appeal.

Stand by or sit by, doesn't matter. It's incorrect. BTW: Nice spin to claim taking one for the team, when in fact neither your president or UIC could take your back on this.

9.01

(c) Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules.
This is clearly not covered in specifically in the rules and this was my interpretation.

Wrong again. The reasons for a forfeit are specifically addressed. It is improper to employ 9.01(c) here.

9.04 (a) The umpire in chief shall stand behind the catcher. (He usually is called the plate umpire.) His duties shall be to:
(1) Take full charge of, and be responsible for, the proper conduct of the game;

In my opinion, this was not proper conduct of the game.

Once again, you have no backing by rule.[/QUOTE]

If this was a court of law it would require case law to decide and there is none because this type of situation with time limits is not covered by MLB rules. There is no resolution only opinions, once again, thanks for yours.
Ed H

Hopefully you are not an attorney.

[DG]

Originally Posted by edhern

Bottom of the sixth starts with 10 minutes left on the time limit. Runners on 2nd and 3rd, one out. After the count goes 3 balls and no strikes on the batter, with 3 minutes left, the coach calls time out to talk to the batter. I put the ball back into play and he sends the runner from third with no attempt to try to score and then he sends the runner from second to get him tagged out. He says that now we have time to start another inning.

I can't find any logic to this tactic. If his team is leading in the bottom of the 6th with 2 runners on and 1 out he should want to continue to score, or at least have the time limit expire. If his team is trailing he should want to score to take the lead. You didn't say what the score was so it's hard to figure.

Anyway, he is up to no good. By the time we have runners on 2nd and 3rd with 1 out and a runner is sent home with no intent to score the 10 minutes we started with are nearly gone. Call time out and have a discussion, "what's going on coach?". Dust off the plate, talk to the catcher. Take your time to put the ball in play.

Anyone who has ever worked a time limit game has milked the clock when near the time limit in a blowout, or in this case where something fishy is going on.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You make a lot of assumptions.

Find any place where I say I condone this manager's actions. In fact, while I can understand giving up a 3rd out to get into another inning when you're down by more than a couple of runs, especially if you have your better hitters coming soon... but I think it was probably bad managing to give up TWO outs, especially with R2 and R3 already.

However, my personal views about the stupidity of his strategy are irrelevant. We are there to officiate the game, not make judgement on tactics. While I think this manager's actions might be stupid, or even contrary to the intent of the game ... THAT'S NOT MY CALL, nor is it yours.

You are simply cheating to penalize a LEGAL tactic that you don't like.

My point, repeatedly made, and repeatedly missed by you, is that this tactic is NOT against the rules, and your unilateral decision to rob him of the 3 minutes he gained by taking this tactic is completely against any code of ethics I want my umpires following. There's no better word than cheating.

I'm more than happy to put myself with Pete on this one, regardless of the names I'm called. I couldn't possibly care less, although depending on the league I'd just finish the game and never go back there again.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I'm more than happy to put myself with Pete on this one, regardless of the names I'm called. I couldn't possibly care less, although depending on the league I'd just finish the game and never go back there again.

But you put yourself apart from Pete as soon as you said you'd finish the game. See...even when you try to be cavalier, you still end up doing the right thing.

[ozzy6900]

Another useless thread! The unknowing ask, the learned and experienced give the correct answers and the unlearned argue their incorrect action.

• When you make up rules, you are wrong!
• When you misapply rules, you are wrong!
• When you do either of the above, you have no backing!
• When you do either of the above and still argue that you are right, you are not worth discussing with.

Garth, put it away, you will never win! You and I both know the right way to handle this situation, we made our point so why bother any more?

End of story.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GarthB

But you put yourself apart from Pete as soon as you said you'd finish the game. See...even when you try to be cavalier, you still end up doing the right thing.

I wouldn't want to put that kind of attention on myself.

I ran into a time limit issue this year, actually. Little League, Junior level, interleague. I had a watch in my back pocket. Both teams screwed around at the start of the game taking excessive infield erven though the field was ready in PLENTY of time and I made it clear the clock had started (and no, there was no specific rule about first pitch or anything and the umpires that do these games pretty much have to fill in the gaps in rules and the one thing I don't do is show up to a game and then wait until past the start time while the coaches show me who owns the field).

We play to the time limit and I call the game. Visiting coach comes out screaming and hollering saying that there's still 5 minutes left. They're down 8 runs and I reminded him what I had said when we finally had the plate meeting. Then he started in on how I'm just trying to screw the players, blah, blah. That's when I turned and kept walking, even though I had parents calling me names all the way to the car.

I hate, HATE time limits, but if I gotta....without a time limit, I would've been a bit more forceful in getting the teams started on time, I must say.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by edhern

We gave them three minutes and at 12:27 am (yes, a.m.) we started a new inning without sticking to the original time limit and finished the game at 12:55 a.m. (don't ask about the scheduling). So there was a perfect time to end the game by rule at 12:27 and we didn't.

I'm a little confused. You stopped one game before the time limit, and then you extended the next game beyond the time limit?

On the original play -- yes, what the coach did was (likely) "wrong." That said, it's a league issue, not an umpire issue. You can write a report if you think he's making a "mockery of the game", but you should have, imo, completed the game.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Another useless thread! The unknowing ask, the learned and experienced give the correct answers and the unlearned argue their incorrect action.

• When you make up rules, you are wrong!
• When you misapply rules, you are wrong!
• When you do either of the above, you have no backing!
• When you do either of the above and still argue that you are right, you are not worth discussing with.

Garth, put it away, you will never win! You and I both know the right way to handle this situation, we made our point so why bother any more?

End of story.

Well, why even have this board then? Ozzy is right. Put it away, folks.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I wouldn't want to put that kind of attention on myself.

I ran into a time limit issue this year, actually. Little League, Junior level, interleague. I had a watch in my back pocket. Both teams screwed around at the start of the game taking excessive infield erven though the field was ready in PLENTY of time and I made it clear the clock had started (and no, there was no specific rule about first pitch or anything and the umpires that do these games pretty much have to fill in the gaps in rules and the one thing I don't do is show up to a game and then wait until past the start time while the coaches show me who owns the field).

We play to the time limit and I call the game. Visiting coach comes out screaming and hollering saying that there's still 5 minutes left. They're down 8 runs and I reminded him what I had said when we finally had the plate meeting. Then he started in on how I'm just trying to screw the players, blah, blah. That's when I turned and kept walking, even though I had parents calling me names all the way to the car.

I hate, HATE time limits, but if I gotta....without a time limit, I would've been a bit more forceful in getting the teams started on time, I must say.

I think that if you worked in an area where the clock was in plain view, and not in your back pocket, the whole issue of whether YOU were screwing anyone would go away --- they'd all see the clock moving and perhaps hustle their pregame rituals ... and they'd DEFINITELY see time expire, and not be reliant on something they can't see or don't trust.

[David M]

The only reason I can think of for a coach doing this is to get players in who have not played and by rule must.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Well, why even have this board then? Ozzy is right. Put it away, folks.

Rich, the board is a place to learn! What's been going on in this thread (as in many others lately) is what I stated. A question is posed, a correct answer is given (and bared out by many, many veterans) and then the it turns into a battle to prove the incorrect is correct! You have seen it yourself! I've seen you involved in many posts that you were 100% correct, quoted the proper rule and the dumba$$ still argues with you.

So this is why I told Garth to "pack it up" and not waste his time. If that's a problem then I'm sorry but I was speaking to Garth.

Offendi offensus imprabus specular. Mea-culpa

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Offendi offensus imprabus specular. Mea-culpa

We just don't see enough of this kind of thing on this board. κυδος, Οζ!

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by edhern

I had an ejection last night, 8/14. The 13 year old team third manager was ejected. Here is the situation. Bottom of the sixth starts with 10 minutes left on the time limit. Runners on 2nd and 3rd, one out. After the count goes 3 balls and no strikes on the batter, with 3 minutes left, the coach calls time out to talk to the batter. I put the ball back into play and he sends the runner from third with no attempt to try to score and then he sends the runner from second to get him tagged out. He says that now we have time to start another inning. I told him he was making a mockery of the game, the game was over, and he is ejected. This was done in accordance with rule 4.15 which reads as follows:

4.15 A game may be forfeited to the opposing team when a team:
(a) Fails to appear upon the field, or being upon the field, refuses to start play within five minutes after the umpire has called "Play" at the appointed hour for beginning the game, unless such delayed appearance is, in the umpire's judgment, unavoidable;
(b) Employs tactics palpably designed to delay or shorten the game;
(c) Refuses to continue play during a game unless the game has been suspended or terminated by the umpire;
(d) Fails to resume play, after a suspension, within one minute after the umpire has called "Play;"
(e) After warning by the umpire, willfully and persistently violates any rules of the game;
(f) Fails to obey within a reasonable time the umpire's order for removal of a player from the game;
(g) Fails to appear for the second game of a doubleheader within twenty minutes after the close of the first game unless the umpire in chief of the first game shall have extended the time of the intermission.

Got into a heap of trouble after the manager called the owners of the complex the game was played who called the President of my umpire association. They said I had no right to stop the game or eject the manager. Any opinions?

Ed H

So a coach who is behind with two runners in scoring position probably about to have the bases loaded with only one out gives up the momentum of an inning that has the potential to be a big inning for the prospect of extending the game?
He may not have broken any rules, but he seems quite the doofus.
Would this be a "smittyism" on the coach?