Got in trouble for this ejection

[edhern]

I had an ejection last night, 8/14. The 13 year old team third manager was ejected. Here is the situation. Bottom of the sixth starts with 10 minutes left on the time limit. Runners on 2nd and 3rd, one out. After the count goes 3 balls and no strikes on the batter, with 3 minutes left, the coach calls time out to talk to the batter. I put the ball back into play and he sends the runner from third with no attempt to try to score and then he sends the runner from second to get him tagged out. He says that now we have time to start another inning. I told him he was making a mockery of the game, the game was over, and he is ejected. This was done in accordance with rule 4.15 which reads as follows:

4.15 A game may be forfeited to the opposing team when a team:
(a) Fails to appear upon the field, or being upon the field, refuses to start play within five minutes after the umpire has called "Play" at the appointed hour for beginning the game, unless such delayed appearance is, in the umpire's judgment, unavoidable;
(b) Employs tactics palpably designed to delay or shorten the game;
(c) Refuses to continue play during a game unless the game has been suspended or terminated by the umpire;
(d) Fails to resume play, after a suspension, within one minute after the umpire has called "Play;"
(e) After warning by the umpire, willfully and persistently violates any rules of the game;
(f) Fails to obey within a reasonable time the umpire's order for removal of a player from the game;
(g) Fails to appear for the second game of a doubleheader within twenty minutes after the close of the first game unless the umpire in chief of the first game shall have extended the time of the intermission.

Got into a heap of trouble after the manager called the owners of the complex the game was played who called the President of my umpire association. They said I had no right to stop the game or eject the manager. Any opinions?

Ed H

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by edhern

I had an ejection last night, 8/14. The 13 year old team third manager was ejected. Here is the situation. Bottom of the sixth starts with 10 minutes left on the time limit. Runners on 2nd and 3rd, one out. After the count goes 3 balls and no strikes on the batter, with 3 minutes left, the coach calls time out to talk to the batter. I put the ball back into play and he sends the runner from third with no attempt to try to score and then he sends the runner from second to get him tagged out. He says that now we have time to start another inning. I told him he was making a mockery of the game, the game was over, and he is ejected. This was done in accordance with rule 4.15 which reads as follows:

4.15 A game may be forfeited to the opposing team when a team:
(a) Fails to appear upon the field, or being upon the field, refuses to start play within five minutes after the umpire has called "Play" at the appointed hour for beginning the game, unless such delayed appearance is, in the umpire's judgment, unavoidable;
(b) Employs tactics palpably designed to delay or shorten the game;
(c) Refuses to continue play during a game unless the game has been suspended or terminated by the umpire;
(d) Fails to resume play, after a suspension, within one minute after the umpire has called "Play;"
(e) After warning by the umpire, willfully and persistently violates any rules of the game;
(f) Fails to obey within a reasonable time the umpire's order for removal of a player from the game;
(g) Fails to appear for the second game of a doubleheader within twenty minutes after the close of the first game unless the umpire in chief of the first game shall have extended the time of the intermission.

Got into a heap of trouble after the manager called the owners of the complex the game was played who called the President of my umpire association. They said I had no right to stop the game or eject the manager. Any opinions?

Ed H

Under which rule listed do you think "making a mockery of the game" falls under?

A. He did not fail to appear on the field.
B. He did not delay or shorten the game, in fact he "quickly" made it possible to lengthen the game.
C. He did not refuse to continue play.
D. He did not refuse to resume play.
E. He did not willfully and persistently violate the rules.
F. He did not fail to obey an umpires order.
G. He did not fail to appear for the second game of a DH, etc.

I don't get how you could use this rule to end the game and toss the manager. Enlighten me.

[edhern]

The game would have ended by time limit rule in 3 minutes, he delayed the end of the game. While we are on the subject enlighten me. Are you contending that managers are within the rules to do things like this, have their batters swing at every pitch to get out on purpose, or throw pitches on a bounce to the plate to walk batters to extend the game or for whatever reason? I've seen posts about these tactics.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by edhern

The game would have ended by time limit rule in 3 minutes, he delayed the end of the game. While we are on the subject enlighten me. Are you contending that managers are within the rules to do things like this, have their batters swing at every pitch to get out on purpose, or throw pitches on a bounce to the plate to walk batters to extend the game or for whatever reason? I've seen posts about these tactics.

Sorry. I don't believe that is what is meant by delay. Delay refers to the pace of the game in normal lexicon, e.g. excessive timeouts, staying to long at the mound during a conference, holding a batter up excessively before getting into the box, etc. He extended the game, he did not delay it.

I didn't say it wasn't bush, I just believe, as apparently do the others involved, that the action is not covered by the rule you cite.

[UmpLarryJohnson]

in your case ed the defense didnt have to playon the runners--but they did so the results stand! no rules violated here. its like throwing over to firstbase 10,000 times w a runner on--irritating but theres still ACTION/play going on so its not a rules violation!

excesive conferances and stuff thats different.

[edhern]

What about teams that have there batters get up and swing to get out in order to make a game official due to time limits or daylight issues. I don't necessarily buy the argument. We can discuss the application of the rule that Garth says doesn't reply, but that is not the point. Is there any rule against such obvious tactics that violate the integrity of the game?

A lot of screaming and comments as we walked away, but no official protest before we left the field. BTW, I lost two scheduled games from the President of my association as a penalty.

[kylejt]

OBR doesn't take into consideration a timed game. Unless it's specifically stated on the local/tournament rules, you really don't have a legal leg to stand on.

Did the manager actually protest, or just run to Mommy?

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by edhern

I had an ejection last night, 8/14. The 13 year old team third manager was ejected. Here is the situation. Bottom of the sixth starts with 10 minutes left on the time limit. Runners on 2nd and 3rd, one out. After the count goes 3 balls and no strikes on the batter, with 3 minutes left, the coach calls time out to talk to the batter. I put the ball back into play and he sends the runner from third with no attempt to try to score and then he sends the runner from second to get him tagged out. He says that now we have time to start another inning. I told him he was making a mockery of the game, the game was over, and he is ejected. This was done in accordance with rule 4.15 which reads as follows:
SNIPPED

So the manager sent his players into "dead-man plays"? So what? There is no rule against this. So you start another inning - that's what you are being paid for! When the time limit comes to pass you deal with it then and not before! Stop Inventing Rules!

This is why I hate Time Limits in baseball.

[MD Longhorn]

It's illegal to delay in a time limit game. Batters taking extra time to tie their shoes, to ensure the clock runs out... fielders refusing to throw to the pitcher when play has stopped, specifically to run out the clock ... THOSE are illegal.

The OPPOSITE, which is what happened to you, is absolutely not illegal. You may hate it, but it's not. You SHOULD have gotten in trouble.

PS - even in the first case, you simply forfeit - no ejection necessary unless someone crosses the line after the forfeit.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by edhern

I had an ejection last night, 8/14. The 13 year old team third manager was ejected. Here is the situation. Bottom of the sixth starts with 10 minutes left on the time limit.

Read Rich's response. The Umpires have the Official Clock PERIOD. Whenever shenanigans happen as you describe them do not make a mess of the situation.

At the end of 6 simply say according to our watch Time limit reached = Game Over and Go Home. Let the coach squalk all he wants. If the game no longer resembles what is supposed to be a baseball game then it's time to leave.

Why the HT coach wanted to play an extra inning I do not know but he can do that on his own time not mine.

Pete Booth

[MD Longhorn]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

Read Rich's response. The Umpires have the Official Clock PERIOD. Whenever shenanigans happen as you describe them do not make a mess of the situation.

At the end of 6 simply say according to our watch Time limit reached = Game Over and Go Home. Let the coach squalk all he wants. If the game no longer resembles what is supposed to be a baseball game then it's time to leave.

Why the HT coach wanted to play an extra inning I do not know but he can do that on his own time not mine.

Pete Booth

So it's ok to cheat on the clock, but not elsewhere? Lying about the time is no better than lying about any other call.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

From the OP

[QUOTE]

I put the ball back into play and he sends the runner from third with no attempt to try to score and then he sends the runner from second to get him tagged out.[/QUOTE]

If you are going to allow the aforementioned in one of your games - Go ahead. All that can come out of this is ugliness. The object of the game of baseball is to try and score more runs than your opponent not to Give them outs.

I do not have a problem if I have to stay there "all day" as long as the teams are indeed playing the game of baseball.

The reason the HT coach is employing the tactics he did is to EXTEND the game. He was not playing the game of baseball. In fact IMO it is the coach who is "cheating"

When there's only 3 minutes left on the clock and the team is employing shenanigans then it's time to go home because if the HT played the game the way they should in the first place the game would have indeed ended after 6.

Pete Booth

[GarthB]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth][QUOTE]


From the OP

If you are going to allow the aforementioned in one of your games - Go ahead. All that can come out of this is ugliness. The object of the game of baseball is to try and score more runs than your opponent not to Give them outs.

I do not have a problem if I have to stay there "all day" as long as the teams are indeed playing the game of baseball.

The reason the HT coach is employing the tactics he did is to EXTEND the game. He was not playing the game of baseball. In fact IMO it is the coach who is "cheating"

When there's only 3 minutes left on the clock and the team is employing shenanigans then it's time to go home because if the HT played the game the way they should in the first place the game would have indeed ended after 6.

Pete Booth

Okay. Let's say you're absolutely right about your reasons. The question is will you be honest when you call the game and cite these reasons, or will you lie and say time has run out?

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE][QUOTE=GarthB]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

2 answers.

1. On the field I would not cite any reason but what do as Rich mentioned and simply say Time limit reached - game Over. In the technical sense yes I would lie but we are talking about 3 minutes in a meaningless game in which shenanigans took place. After all it was the HT coach who wanted for some ukknown reason to play an extra inning.


BTW I have started an inning with only 3 minutes left but that was because the teams were hustling and playing the game of baseball. In the OP this was not the case.


2. If the coach got Po'd over my decision and called my assignor, I would tell my assignor what the deal was and knowing my assignor the way I do he would have no problem in what I did.

I am surpised at the responses in this OP in that posters seem to actually condone what this coach did and have no problem with it.

Pete Booth

[DG]

Originally Posted by edhern

Bottom of the sixth starts with 10 minutes left on the time limit. Runners on 2nd and 3rd, one out. After the count goes 3 balls and no strikes on the batter, with 3 minutes left, the coach calls time out to talk to the batter. I put the ball back into play and he sends the runner from third with no attempt to try to score and then he sends the runner from second to get him tagged out. He says that now we have time to start another inning.

I can't find any logic to this tactic. If his team is leading in the bottom of the 6th with 2 runners on and 1 out he should want to continue to score, or at least have the time limit expire. If his team is trailing he should want to score to take the lead. You didn't say what the score was so it's hard to figure.

Anyway, he is up to no good. By the time we have runners on 2nd and 3rd with 1 out and a runner is sent home with no intent to score the 10 minutes we started with are nearly gone. Call time out and have a discussion, "what's going on coach?". Dust off the plate, talk to the catcher. Take your time to put the ball in play.

Anyone who has ever worked a time limit game has milked the clock when near the time limit in a blowout, or in this case where something fishy is going on.