I've finally seen it............

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Do you realize how dumb that sounds? It is not just umpires that have these standards, it is the coaches. If you do things that make you stand out or look like you do not know what you are doing, they will try you more.

I don't want to jump to conclusions, so I'll ask:
Are you saying that if you brush off a base you look like you don't know what you're doing?
the question is to you and the others who seemingly have the same opinion.

I had a 15 yr travel game the other night, solo, R2. Pickoff F1 to F6.
there was zero color differentiation between base and dirt, between the bodies and being 120' away I couldn't even see the bump.
Makes it real difficult to make an accurate call.

Betwwen innings I walked out kicked the bag and when I still couldn't see white I pulled out my brush.
IMO, anyone who thinks that is unprofessional has a warped sense of professionalism.
I'd say ability to see base is right up there with angle and distance.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Are you saying that if you brush off a base you look like you don't know what you're doing?

To experienced coaches and trained umpires, yes.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I don't want to jump to conclusions, so I'll ask:
Are you saying that if you brush off a base you look like you don't know what you're doing? The question is to you and the others who seemingly have the same opinion.

I had a 15 yr travel game the other night, solo, R2. Pickoff F1 to F6.
there was zero color differentiation between base and dirt, between the bodies and being 120' away I couldn't even see the bump.
Makes it real difficult to make an accurate call.

Betwwen innings I walked out kicked the bag and when I still couldn't see white I pulled out my brush.
IMO, anyone who thinks that is unprofessional has a warped sense of professionalism.
I'd say ability to see base is right up there with angle and distance.

Here is the problem; you and others are trying to oversimplify this discussion. You do not see a Major League Umpire or a D1 umpire brush off the bag with a plate brush. Now it is called a plate brush for a reason. The very same reason you do not see basketball officials wear a collared shirt either. If you do it either means you are not very well trained or you are not a very knowledgeable as an umpire or official. Now you can think whatever you like. But whether you like it or not, when someone is trying to decide to give someone a big game or move up in a level, they will use things like what I just told you as part of the discussion. Because if you bring out a plate brush to wipe off the a base, chances area you are doing other things that are not considered professional. Also someone might scrutinize you much harsher as well. I have yet to find anyone that teaches this. I did this for about 2 games and I was told to stop. I did not question the person, but they told me it looked bad and made me seem like a rookie and I have not done this since. This is no different than wearing a ball bag on the bases as well.

You do not have to agree. But I will also not be making decisions about your career or your umpiring opportunities. I do not see a big deal going to an interview without a tie or chewing gum, but the person that is doing the interview just might.

Also keep in mind you said you were working a 15 year old travel tournament. That level does not have the same expectation of umpire professionalism as working a HS varsity game or a college and pro game.

Peace

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Here is the problem; you and others are trying to oversimplify this discussion. You do not see a Major League Umpire or a D1 umpire brush off the bag with a plate brush.

95% of the folks on this board are not MLB, MiLB or D1. Never do any of these umps ever have to make a call from 120'

Field conditions are also much different at most Babe ruth, travel fields and in house fields. Sometimes one has to improvise

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Now it is called a plate brush for a reason. The very same reason you do not see basketball officials wear a collared shirt either.

Brushing off a base so you can see it at 120' is much different than wearing a collared shirt.
One is necessitated to help insure a correct call, the other is a matter of uniform.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you do it either means you are not very well trained or you are not a very knowledgeable as an umpire or official.

The trained umpire by definition has xray eyes and can see thrugh the dirt at 120'
Give me a break!!
It's a matter of seeing the base or not seeing the base.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Now you can think whatever you like. But whether you like it or not, when someone is trying to decide to give someone a big game or move up in a level, they will use things like what I just told you as part of the discussion.

You are such an elitist.
I'd venture to say that over 95% of the baseball games played in this country are below the HS varsity level. When umpiring below that level field conditions vary from excellent to very poor.
When I'm doing a solo 15 yr old game I'm not interviewing for the ASU vs USC game. I'm doing what's necessary to give the 15 yr olds a quality officiated game and if that means I have to brush off 2nd in order to see it, so be it.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Because if you bring out a plate brush to wipe off the a base, chances area you are doing other things that are not considered professional.
Also someone might scrutinize you much harsher as well. I have yet to find anyone that teaches this. I did this for about 2 games and I was told to stop. I did not question the person, but they told me it looked bad and made me seem like a rookie and I have not done this since.

If it's 2 man I totally agree, not if you're solo and you can't see the white of the bag.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is no different than wearing a ball bag on the bases as well.

It's no different than wearing a collared shirt in basketball but much different than brushing a base out of necessity

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Also keep in mind you said you were working a 15 year old travel tournament. That level does not have the same expectation of umpire professionalism as working a HS varsity game or a college and pro game.

See elitist comment above

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

95% of the folks on this board are not MLB, MiLB or D1. Never do any of these umps ever have to make a call from 120'

Field conditions are also much different at most Babe ruth, travel fields and in house fields. Sometimes one has to improvise

99% of non-umpires judge us on things that they see on TV or at the local MLB stadium. That is just the way it is whether you or I like it.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Brushing off a base so you can see it at 120' is much different than wearing a collared shirt.
One is necessitated to help insure a correct call, the other is a matter of uniform.

Actually it is not, but then again I am experienced in both.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

The trained umpire by definition has xray eyes and can see thrugh the dirt at 120'
Give me a break!!
It's a matter of seeing the base or not seeing the base.

I am still having a hard time trying to understand why it is hard to see a base that is raised off the ground. Also I do not see even most youth fields so bad that dirt is stacked on top of each base. Usually most youth fields I have worked on they do water the dirt and they rack the dirt. Or they do not have to do this at all because of rain that pelted the field. I know I wear contacts, but maybe my eyesight is better than your eyesight.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

You are such an elitist.
I'd venture to say that over 95% of the baseball games played in this country are below the HS varsity level. When umpiring below that level field conditions vary from excellent to very poor.
When I'm doing a solo 15 yr old game I'm not interviewing for the ASU vs USC game. I'm doing what's necessary to give the 15 yr olds a quality officiated game and if that means I have to brush off 2nd in order to see it, so be it.

Don, even on the lowest of levels, there are people that do nothing but take care of the fields from my experience. Actually where I live the players and the coaches are the ones that keep up their own fields. At the D-1 level I have worked, the group that put on the tarp was the home players. That does not sound like too elite to me. That sounds like the coaches, players and fans want the field to be in good shape.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

It's no different than wearing a collared shirt in basketball but much different than brushing a base out of necessity

Don, you are sadly mistaken. Basketball is just like any other sport that has mores that are expected for the officials to look like they know what they are doing. BTW, I just finished my last basketball camp on Sunday. Most of the comments that were made about me were about presentation, appearance, use of voice, ability to run and the last thing that was talked about was calls I actually made. Why is that, because officials at a certain level are going to have equal or similar ability to make a call? The other things I listed show an official's confidence and give the perception they know what the hell they are doing. It is very hard in a basketball game (applies to baseball too) for a coach to say I was not in position when I hustled and I make the call. Even how we sell a basic all can tell on us as an official to how much we know about the game.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

See elitist comment above

If I am an elitist, you are a weekend warrior. We are judged as officials from the way deal with the secretary at the school to the time we leave the field or gym that we officiate. Also do not think all lower level coaches have not played or have not coached the game for years. They are often judging you in ways you will never know. There is a reason some umpires are always having problems and other umpires hardly ever have problems. I went for about a 5 to 6 year stretch without ejecting a single coach. In many of those cases I was never seen before by the coaches and I had some really tough plays to call. I can assure you that a large reason for that was because I was trained on the dos and donts of umpiring and I looked like I was in position and hustled every single time I was on a field during that time. Also most umpires that I know that really take umpiring seriously, want to work HS and HS varsity because the pay usually goes up and people they work with are much better. If you are just a LL umpire and you want to brush the dirt off with your plate brush that might be something that works at that level. When you start working games beyond that, you better be more competent in what you are doing. If not, you will be run out off the field a lot quicker.

Once again this is just an opinion. Feel free to ignore them. I am just sharing something to help out those out that do not know any better.

Peace

[UmpLarryJohnson]

have NEVER had any problems seeing a base without "BRUSHING" it like some FISH out there......wow

if you cant SEE a base thats like 2 feet SQUARE and 3-4 INCHES tall from the PROPER position on the field, JEHOVAH man get some LAZIK or quit ferchissssakes


YOU are why CHARLIE jokes are POPULAR. NUF SAID DONE with this one

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

99% of non-umpires judge us on things that they see on TV or at the local MLB stadium. That is just the way it is whether you or I like it.

Fun with Numbers
98% of the people have never been to a MLB stadium and 99.9% of the people watching TV never see the umpire until there's a s#@%storm.
So contrary to your assertion I say no one but other anal umps will ever judge me based on what they see on TV.
The next time a MLB ump has to make a call from 120' with the 7:00 sun bearing down from RCF on a dirt colored base will be the first time.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Actually it is not, but then again I am experienced in both.

Experience has never been a good substitution for common sense

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am still having a hard time trying to understand why it is hard to see a base that is raised off the ground. Also I do not see even most youth fields so bad that dirt is stacked on top of each base. Usually most youth fields I have worked on they do water the dirt and they rack the dirt.

I never said all fields or most fields, in fact the other day when I Brushed 2nd was the first time I'd ever done it, but the conditions were such that it in my opinion dictated it.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Don, you are sadly mistaken. Basketball is just like any other sport that has mores that are expected for the officials to look like they know what they are doing. BTW, I just finished my last basketball camp on Sunday. Most of the comments that were made about me were about presentation, appearance, use of voice, ability to run and the last thing that was talked about was calls I actually made. Why is that, because officials at a certain level are going to have equal or similar ability to make a call? The other things I listed show an official's confidence and give the perception they know what the hell they are doing. It is very hard in a basketball game (applies to baseball too) for a coach to say I was not in position when I hustled and I make the call. Even how we sell a basic all can tell on us as an official to how much we know about the game.

I was LJ at a varsity football game last year where I actually leaned down picked up the orange end zone pylon and put it back in place. I've never ever seen an NFL ref do such a thing. Maybe that's why I haven't got that D1 assignment yet.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If I am an elitist, you are a weekend warrior. We are judged as officials from the way deal with the secretary at the school to the time we leave the field or gym that we officiate.

When I'm not warring on the weekends I manage a few salesman. Some do what it takes to get the job done and others don't move a muscle if it ain't on the job description.
When it comes time to pass out the perks or I need to assign an account, who do you think gets first priority?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Also do not think all lower level coaches have not played or have not coached the game for years. They are often judging you in ways you will never know. There is a reason some umpires are always having problems and other umpires hardly ever have problems.

Suddenly experienced coaches know the do and don'ts of an umpire, even know proper mechanics?
Either the coaches are rats and have no idea as to rules, mechanics and nuances of an umpire or they do. Don't suddenly give them credit for their incredible insighfulness when it suits your side of an argument.
That's being a hypocrite.

I've never worked a 2 or 3 man game game where I or my P have brushed a bag so I don't know if there is a correlation between brushing a bag and trouble with game management. Perhaps you're privy to some studies I haven't seen.
On the surface I see no correlation between brushing a bag and lack of game management skills.
Are there bag brushers who struggle with game management? I'm sure there are. Are there non bag brushers who have trouble with game management? Absolutely.
When I'm BU I will never brush a bag for 2 reasons.
1. I won't have a brush
2. I'm not using my hands

But not because I think there is some cosmic bad karma that's going to hit me if I do.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I went for about a 5 to 6 year stretch without ejecting a single coach. In many of those cases I was never seen before by the coaches and I had some really tough plays to call. I can assure you that a large reason for that was because I was trained on the dos and donts of umpiring and I looked like I was in position and hustled every single time I was on a field during that time. Also most umpires that I know that really take umpiring seriously, want to work HS and HS varsity because the pay usually goes up and people they work with are much better. If you are just a LL umpire and you want to brush the dirt off with your plate brush that might be something that works at that level. When you start working games beyond that, you better be more competent in what you are doing. If not, you will be run out off the field a lot quicker.

Good umpires are not in the habit of making assumptions.
I do not do in season college ball and I do not do LL but in between I do all levels.
Travel ball actually pays more than varsity. The good 14 and 15 yr old travel teams are as good if not better than many varsity programs.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Once again this is just an opinion. Feel free to ignore them. I am just sharing something to help out those out that do not know any better.

Peace

If every opinion was the same the forum would be quite boring

[NEohioref]

very nice post

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Fun with Numbers
98% of the people have never been to a MLB stadium and 99.9% of the people watching TV never see the umpire until there's a s#@%storm.
So contrary to your assertion I say no one but other anal umps will ever judge me based on what they see on TV.
The next time a MLB ump has to make a call from 120' with the 7:00 sun bearing down from RCF on a dirt colored base will be the first time.

My comment does not include people like my mother that would never go to a baseball game unless I dragged her there.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Experience has never been a good substitution for common sense

True statement. Sad part is I agree but for different reasons.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I never said all fields or most fields, in fact the other day when I Brushed 2nd was the first time I'd ever done it, but the conditions were such that it in my opinion dictated it.

I also never made a comment about the level of ball the fields this might apply or might not apply. But you jumped to a conclusion about the level as if that would change how I or others feel about this situation.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I was LJ at a varsity football game last year where I actually leaned down picked up the orange end zone pylon and put it back in place. I've never ever seen an NFL ref do such a thing. Maybe that's why I haven't got that D1 assignment yet.

Well, I have seen NFL officials move the pylon back. As a matter of fact that was the case the last NFL game I attended. Once again you are missing the point. It is not about cleaning off the bag, it is about using a plate brush. Officials might put the pylon back because they just were involved in a play where the pylon moved.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

When I'm not warring on the weekends I manage a few salesman. Some do what it takes to get the job done and others don't move a muscle if it ain't on the job description.
When it comes time to pass out the perks or I need to assign an account, who do you think gets first priority?

I did not ask you about your real job.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Suddenly experienced coaches know the do and don'ts of an umpire, even know proper mechanics?
Either the coaches are rats and have no idea as to rules, mechanics and nuances of an umpire or they do. Don't suddenly give them credit for their incredible insighfulness when it suits your side of an argument.
That's being a hypocrite.

I am not saying they know everything. They do expect us to behave in a professional manner and there are things that tell on our experience or our competence level. Umpiring/Officiating is about survival. When you do things that make you look new or inexperienced, a coach will take advantage of it. It is not always fair or right. It just is that way.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I've never worked a 2 or 3 man game game where I or my P have brushed a bag so I don't know if there is a correlation between brushing a bag and trouble with game management. Perhaps you're privy to some studies I haven't seen.
On the surface I see no correlation between brushing a bag and lack of game management skills.
Are there bag brushers who struggle with game management? I'm sure there are. Are there non bag brushers who have trouble with game management? Absolutely.
When I'm BU I will never brush a bag for 2 reasons.
1. I won't have a brush
2. I'm not using my hands

But not because I think there is some cosmic bad karma that's going to hit me if I do.

Even if you are right, the reality is that someone that you might have to deal with will think you are not as well trained. Then when you do not do the other things perfect, they will draw their own conclusions. I think you are putting way too much on whether someone brushes off a bag or not. I do not think anyone said your entire career was based on this one fact. But when you do things like this, it usually does not stop there. Can you show me anywhere in any book where this is apart of our job description? If you cannot show me, then that just goes to show you are advocating something that is not expected of us. If you do not know the basics, what rule do you not know? What mechanic do you not understand? What game management skill have you not been told about?

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Good umpires are not in the habit of making assumptions.
I do not do in season college ball and I do not do LL but in between I do all levels.
Travel ball actually pays more than varsity. The good 14 and 15 yr old travel teams are as good if not better than many varsity programs.

If every opinion was the same the forum would be quite boring

I did not make any assumptions. You said you did this at a 15 year old travel league. I think you might agree that working a travel league does not have the same expectations or requirements as a HS or college level game. Even a freshman game requires an umpire to have a license and to follow certain protocols or they will not work that level or they will stay at the freshman level the rest of their career. I can work a travel league game and the only requirement is for me to have a uniform and maybe some protection. I really do not understand why you are so sensitive about this. You are the one that brought up the level you did this at.

Peace

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not saying they know everything. They do expect us to behave in a professional manner and there are things that tell on our experience or our competence level. Umpiring/Officiating is about survival.

I've never considered umpiring or officiating a game of survival. Proper game management skills allow the vast majority of games to go smooth.
In the rare case a storm hits then I take it as a challenge to get through it professionally, making proper rulings and keeping my integrity. If the adrenaline spikes a bit it's invigorating.
Never do I take the field with the thought of hoping to survive.
Talk about coaches smelling blood.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

When you do things that make you look new or inexperienced, a coach will take advantage of it. It is not always fair or right. It just is that way.

Here's the thing, I'm not new and I'm not inexperienced, there is nothing to take advantage of.
Good game management skills trump bag brushing.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Even if you are right, the reality is that someone that you might have to deal with will think you are not as well trained.

Aren't you the one that says you could care less what others think when you're on the field?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Then when you do not do the other things perfect, they will draw their own conclusions.

And I care why?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think you are putting way too much on whether someone brushes off a bag or not.

No I think everyone else is including yourself.
I have simply said that in order to see the bag at 120' I have no problem brushing it. That was in response to many people on this thread calling anyone who brushes a bag a smitty.
It's ok to kick the bag, but heaven forbid you actually lean down and accomplish something.

Would you prefer umping a game on a lined field or unlined?
On a fly down the line, it's much more accurate if you have a foul line. Of course if you don't you make your best guess. If there is a line it takes the guess work out.

To those who have occasion to work a game solo and 2b happens to be dirty beyond kicking and you choose to call blind because you ego or energy level doesn't allow you to clean it then IMO it shows your commitment level, or lack thereof. Maybe it gives an insight to who is really there for just a paycheck.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not make any assumptions. You said you did this at a 15 year old travel league. I think you might agree that working a travel league does not have the same expectations or requirements as a HS or college level game.

Apparently you don't work any high profile travel tournaments. The expectations are as high as any varsity contest.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Even a freshman game requires an umpire to have a license and to follow certain protocols or they will not work that level or they will stay at the freshman level the rest of their career. I can work a travel league game and the only requirement is for me to have a uniform and maybe some protection. I really do not understand why you are so sensitive about this. You are the one that brought up the level you did this at.

Peace

You called it LL, I was just correcting you.

Does your association take any one with a mask and a shirt to do games?
If that's the case I can see it being pretty easy to get to varsity and college in your area.

[Tim C]

Sadly Don you have simply become . . . insignificant.

Ignore +1

Regards,

[UmpLarryJohnson]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

and when I still couldn't see white I pulled out my brush.

WOW, if id been a RAT there and saw THAT, id have been ALL OVER you next opp because RIGHT away i know Ive got "fresh fish" on the field


RUTLEDGE is RIGHT. GO AHEAD, wear a ballcap backward when you go for that BIG INTERVIEW...its your RIGHT


and you WONT get the JOB so you can MOAN all the way HOME about how life is UNFAIR.

Mr MULLER make sure on your GAME CHECKS they spell "CHARLIE" correct, ok?

[Don Mueller]

to
Tim, Rut, Garth and Larry

I understand that none of you would lower yourself to clean off a bag, but none of you spoke to the issue that prompted the cleaning.
Do you prefer making calls at 120' to a bag you can see or approximating where it might be based on player location?
Personally I prefer seeing the bag before making a call
Was it one of the old SNL comedians that said "It's better to look good then feel good"?
You guys have gone one better 'It's better to look good then get the call right'
I'd rather be a 'smitty' and get the call right then be... well be like you and be guessing

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

to
Tim, Rut, Garth and Larry

I understand that none of you would lower yourself to clean off a bag, but none of you spoke to the issue that prompted the cleaning.

It has nothing to do with "lowering yourself." How hard is it to see a bag that is off the ground? This is not something like the plate that in imbedded in the ground. The bases is off the damn ground. Even with some dirt on it, it is easy to see. If you cannot see an object sticking out of the ground, you need to get into better position or go to an eye doctor. I also did not say I would not kick some dirt off the bag. I said I would not use a “plate brush” (notice the name) to brush dirt off the bag.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Do you prefer making calls at 120' to a bag you can see or approximating where it might be based on player location?
Personally I prefer seeing the bag before making a call
Was it one of the old SNL comedians that said "It's better to look good then feel good"? You guys have gone one better 'It's better to look good then get the call right'
I'd rather be a 'smitty' and get the call right then be... well be like you and be guessing

So you are telling me that if you have two umpires that have the same ability, 5'7 and 300 pounds and the other umpire is 6'1 and 195 and athletic will be judged the same?

Also one of the biggest myths in any kind of officiating, is the fact that we think "getting plays right" is what makes us a better official/umpire. Getting a play right is often a perception. There are veterans that have been around, have a vast resume and they will make a big mistake and no one will bother them. They have earned a certain level of respect for years of experience. A rookie has not earned that same level of respect even though they might be better than most veterans are nitpicked by everything they do. If you want to believe that no one makes decisions about you as an umpire on factors like this. Turn your hat backwards. Wear white colored shoes. Wear a pair of pants from Wal-mart. Use and adjustable hat. Do all those things and more then do not complain when other umpires inferior to you get better games or advance or are asked to work the big tournaments. But remember you got the plays right.

Peace

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It has nothing to do with "lowering yourself." How hard is it to see a bag that is off the ground? This is not something like the plate that in imbedded in the ground. The bases is off the damn ground. Even with some dirt on it, it is easy to see. If you cannot see an object sticking out of the ground, you need to get into better position or go to an eye doctor. I also did not say I would not kick some dirt off the bag. I said I would not use a “plate brush” (notice the name) to brush dirt off the bag.

I understand that you haven't done a solo on a poor field in a long time, maybe ever. I can say that with confidence because your statement about the bag being off the ground therefore visible is a dead giveaway.
I'll guarantee you there are plenty of umpires on this board that would verify what I'm saying but they're scared of getting flamed.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Also one of the biggest myths in any kind of officiating, is the fact that we think "getting plays right" is what makes us a better official/umpire.

If angle and distance is important then why is bag visibility so unimportant?