Throwing to a base

[njdevs00cup]

Does the rule apply only to first base (FED rules) that the F3 must be holding the runner on the bag to receive a pick off throw? Provided 3B is occupied, is it a balk to throw to F5 who is off the bag?

[Tim C]

The rule (under all codes) applies only to first base.

Regards,

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by njdevs00cup

Does the rule apply only to first base (FED rules) that the F3 must be holding the runner on the bag to receive a pick off throw? Provided 3B is occupied, is it a balk to throw to F5 who is off the bag?

First base is the only base a pitcher must complete the throw to from the rubber without balking. I'm sure you already knew that. That means that he doesn't have to complete the throw at all to second or third from the rubber as long as he steps ahead of the feint; etc.

At first base the fielder must be near enough to the bag that he has a legitimate opportunity to retire the runner. Of course this leaves the call all up to your judgment as to whether or not F3 has a legitimate play on R1.


Tim.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

At first base the fielder must be near enough to the bag that he has a legitimate opportunity to retire the runner. Of course this leaves the call all up to your judgment as to whether or not F3 has a legitimate play on R1.


Tim.

By your logic, then a pick off thrown ahead of R1 (to the 2B side of R1) is a balk. Wait, no, F3 has a legitimate play on R1, no balk. No, that can't be, F3 is dove back to first; no, wait, yada yada yada

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by fitump56

By your logic, then a pick off thrown ahead of R1 (to the 2B side of R1) is a balk. Wait, no, F3 has a legitimate play on R1, no balk. No, that can't be, F3 is dove back to first; no, wait, yada yada yada

It's not just my logic. It's backed by very noteable sources. You really should get a few definitive resources and see for yourself.

From the J/R:

It is a balk if a pitcher:

11. Steps to first base, and :

3) Throws, but the first baseman, because of his distance from the base, is unable (or if the throw is errant- would have been unable) to try a tag against the runner at first.


Tim.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

It's not just my logic. It's backed by very noteable sources. You really should get a few definitive resources and see for yourself.

From the J/R:

It is a balk if a pitcher:

11. Steps to first base, and :

3) Throws, but the first baseman, because of his distance from the base, is unable (or if the throw is errant- would have been unable) to try a tag against the runner at first.


Tim.

That's one source, pardner, which addresses zip of the below, so try again.

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

At first base the fielder must be near enough to the bag that he has a legitimate opportunity to retire the runner. Of course this leaves the call all up to your judgment as to whether or not F3 has a legitimate play on R1.


Tim.

By your logic, then a pick off thrown ahead of R1 (to the 2B side of R1) is a balk, it's not near the bag. Wait, no, F3 has a legitimate play on R1, no balk. No, that can't be, F3 dove back to first; no, wait, F3 is not near the bag, or is he? yada yada yada.

"Near to the bag" has nothing to do with this call which was my point entirely. Legitimate chance to retire is the guts of this rule/call.

Your turn.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by fitump56

That's one source, pardner, which addresses zip of the below, so try again.



By your logic, then a pick off thrown ahead of R1 (to the 2B side of R1) is a balk, it's not near the bag. Wait, no, F3 has a legitimate play on R1, no balk. No, that can't be, F3 dove back to first; no, wait, F3 is not near the bag, or is he? yada yada yada.

"Near to the bag" has nothing to do with this call which was my point entirely. Legitimate chance to retire is the guts of this rule/call.

Your turn.

Ummmm.....

I believe I said the fielder must be near enough to the bag (distance) to have a legitimate chance to retire the runner or it's a balk


Roder says if the fielder, because of his distance from the bag, is unable to try a tag (legitimate opportunity to retire the runner) it's a balk.


I'm not sure what part has you confused.



Tim.

[renrodb]

Originally Posted by njdevs00cup

Does the rule apply only to first base (FED rules) that the F3 must be holding the runner on the bag to receive a pick off throw? Provided 3B is occupied, is it a balk to throw to F5 who is off the bag?

To answer your question, The fielder receiving the pick off throw from the pitcher must be within reach of the occupied base for the throw NOT to be a balk.

[njdevs00cup]

Thank you for the help and clarification! Does the same rule apply to OBR? I worked with a very experienced umpire from our association. He called a balk on a picther for throwing to F4, who was moving toward 2B (occupied), but about four feet away. We were playing OBR.

[renrodb]

Originally Posted by renrodb

To answer your question, The fielder receiving the pick off throw from the pitcher must be within reach of the occupied base for the throw NOT to be a balk.

Same answer for OBR.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by renrodb

Same answer for OBR.

ONLY AT FIRST BASE!


At other bases you can throw to the fielder, even if he isn't close to the base.


MLBUM 7.5

(b) There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a pick-off at second base and, seeing no fielder covering the bag, throws to the shortstop or second baseman, neither of whom is in the vicinity of the bag nor is making an actual attempt to retire the runner.

[RPatrino]

Holy Cow!

This sitch is not a third world play or extremely rare. It is clearly defined in the rule books and in numerous case books. Maybe I'm being a grouch, but to me it's lazy for someone not to take the time to study the rules before asking a question.

[DG]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

This sitch is not a third world play or extremely rare. It is clearly defined in the rule books and in numerous case books. Maybe I'm being a grouch, but to me it's lazy for someone not to take the time to study the rules before asking a question.

It's not so clear in the rule book, you have to own an interp manual to look it up.

It happens every year, this year I saw it once and heard about it once. Once in a game I was PU, neither my partner or I called a balk and I had to explain it to a 35+ year varsity high school coach. He said "I didn't know that.". Fortunately, the play was discussed in a pre-season clinic and my partner remembered it and did not call the balk.

The other time I was listening to a D-1 game on the radio. A throw over to 3B was called a balk with R3. The call was not made initially, but only after the HC from the 3B box called out "that's a balk". The other D-1 coach did not come out to argue so the run was allowed to score. The announcers, bless their heart, could not explain what happened for a balk to be called. I heard about it later, that the reason was the throw over to F5 who was off the bag. The run had no bearing on the outcome of the game. I know the guys working that game will never make that mistake again because I heard about it from a D-1 evaluator who was at the game.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Holy Cow!

This sitch is not a third world play or extremely rare. It is clearly defined in the rule books and in numerous case books. Maybe I'm being a grouch, but to me it's lazy for someone not to take the time to study the rules before asking a question.

Who says he didn't Grouch? Maybe part of the reason anyone posts here regardless of insensitive tirades such as yours is to enjoy talking about umpiring.

Personally, lazy is defined to the ultimate by those who make replies and don't quote the source post. YMSurelyDiffers.

[njdevs00cup]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Holy Cow!

This sitch is not a third world play or extremely rare. It is clearly defined in the rule books and in numerous case books. Maybe I'm being a grouch, but to me it's lazy for someone not to take the time to study the rules before asking a question.

Sorry to offend you with my question. We're all not as good as interpreting the rule book as you! Ignore it if you don't like it. Like I said, an experienced umpire called a balk on a throw near second base. I read the rule and want to make sure I didn't miss anything!