ESPN: "Are ejections getting out of hand?"

[briancurtin]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

wow.

How many world series games have you umpired?

Wow.

So we have gone from how many All Star appearances someone has made as an MLB player (zero), to how many World Series games they have umpired (zero). Those two zeroes must invalidate everything about them.
Is there just no possibility for someone to be better or smarter than someone who is higher in rank???

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Explain how being a great ball player makes you knowledgable about baseball? Or not being a great ball player makes you less knowledgable. I sit down every night and watch my Yankees play (you can PM me if you want to flame me for being a Yanks fan) and see things going on in a game that the announcers don't discuss. I also don't see things that the announcers do discuss. Baseball is a complicated game, always stuff going on.

Tonight, A-Rod hits a lined shot to the wall, trots to first, then finally shifts gears but is called out at second. U1 inexplicably did not cut in on the play (U3 went out, U2 to third). A-Rod starts to whine, umpire says something and walks away, and then A-Rod yells something more. Umpire comes back in on him and they argue some. 1st base coach gets A-Rod to the dugout.

Dummie Paul O'Neill talks about how the call was wrong, A-Rod did what he had to do to get second, and the umpire was wrong for arguing back.

Guess 2,000 some hits really makes you understand baseball from the whining perspective, which I don't think most fans want to listen to.

Off soap box.

U1 inexplicably did not cut in on the play (U3 went out, U2 to third).

Now what MLB crew butchered a play this bad that Paul O'Neill is such a dummie.

BTW-What umpire called A-Rod out at second? Sounds like no one was left at the base.

Not to worry. When the Rocket launches this Saturday against the lowly Pittsburgh Pirates, I sure the Yanks will be able hold off the surging Devil Rays for fourth place in the AL East. Third is even possible if the mightly Baltimore Orioles lose a middle reliever and the Toronto Blue Jays have to trade their back up catcher so they can bring up a set up man from Double AA.

Off soap box.

[GarthB]

Guys, please....

Give those of us who got rid of the pianoman a break. Feel free to bicker with the troll if you want, but stop using the quote feature so we don't have read his garbage.

What goes on the ignore list, should stay on the ignore list.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Guys, please....

Give those of us who got rid of the pianoman a break. Feel free to bicker with the troll if you want, but stop using the quote feature so we don't have read his garbage.

What goes on the ignore list, should stay on the ignore list.

Don't worry about me. He joined PWL/Tyler there tonight.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Guys, please....

Give those of us who got rid of the pianoman a break. Feel free to bicker with the troll if you want, but stop using the quote feature so we don't have read his garbage.

What goes on the ignore list, should stay on the ignore list.

Hey, the good news is that when he's over here, he's not trolling on another forum. He ain't up to multi-tasking. We had this particular clown over on the basketball forum for a while too, infesting the place. Don't let him get to you. He's kinda like jock itch; mildly irritating, useless for anything, but relatively harmless. He'll leave when he figures that there's no more umpires left to piss off.

[JR12]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Hey, Morgan and McCarver know very little about the rules of baseball. Once in a while Morgan gets lucky and manages to get one right, but McCarver very, very rarely knows any except the most basic funadamental rules, and even those he butchers with regularity.

Yes, they played major league baseball, but that does not make them baseball experts. Most of us did play baseball too, and our knowledge of the game is on a much higher level due to our umpiring experience. Those who have little or no umpiring experience typically do not know the rules to the degree that we do.

Hall of famer, Jim Palmer used to do some local TV. He butchers rules all the time and always disagrees with the Umpires. Drives me crazy!

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Well, gee. If you had a chance to talk baseball in Heaven with Ted Williams or Rudy Regalato, who would you choose?

I don't know - Ted Williams managed for four years and compiled a record of 273 wins, 364 loses, .429 pct. Yeah, we know he could hit but did he understand anything else about the game?

[LMan]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Don't worry about me. He joined PWL/Tyler there tonight.

If a troll posts in a forum and no one can read it, does it make a sound?

[lawump]

Originally Posted by waltjp

I don't know - Ted Williams managed for four years and compiled a record of 273 wins, 364 loses, .429 pct. Yeah, we know he could hit but did he understand anything else about the game?

Going way off track here: But to be fair to Ted, he managed the worst team in the majors, the Senators (second version). Nevertheless, he managed the Senators to their ONLY winning record during their entire stay in Washington in 1969.

He also, while retired and managing, put on the greatest pre-game hitting clinic Ron Luciano ever saw (according to one of Luciano's books).

O.k. I'm done with this sidetrack.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I honestly don't think that Joe or Tim have any more knowledge of baseball than I do.
So, Tim and Joe, here come the stones.

Tuss,
Here's a challenge.

Pick out the best high school coach in your area.
Now imagine spending one season as his assistant. Do you think you'd learn anything about the game? Or do you already know everything he does?

Now pick out the best division 1 coach you can think of.
Now imagine spending 1 season following him around. Do you think you'd learn anything about the game? Or do you already know it all?

Now imagine spending 9 years playing for a hall of fame MLB manager, multiple world series winner and throw in a couple coach of the year awards for good measure, let's say someone like, I don't know, say Sparky Anderson. Do you think you'd learn a little bit about the game or do you already know everything he does?

So throw the stones if you like but I'm telling you you're statement is born from ignorance.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Hey, Morgan and McCarver know very little about the rules of baseball. Once in a while Morgan gets lucky and manages to get one right, but McCarver very, very rarely knows any except the most basic funadamental rules, and even those he butchers with regularity.

Yes, they played major league baseball, but that does not make them baseball experts. Most of us did play baseball too, and our knowledge of the game is on a much higher level due to our umpiring experience. Those who have little or no umpiring experience typically do not know the rules to the degree that we do.

Steve, I guess it depends on how you define expert.

If I was going to send my son for hitting lessons and I had a choice between Joe West, Joe Morgan or a 50 yr old great veteran umpire that played rec ball till he was 30, after much deliberation I'd probably pick Morgan.
If I wanted to learn about the strategies and secrets of infield play I'd pick Joe Morgan over Dana DeMuth.
If I was picking a mentor for my son, the catcher, and I had a choice between Tim McClelland and Tim McCarver I'm sorry I'd be picking McCarver.
If I wanted an indepth education on the nuances and strategies of the game of baseball I'd pick any MLB manager or player over any of the MLB umpires.

If I wanted to improve my umpire skills I'd pick any MLB, MiLB, NCAA, or Fed veteran umpire over any ball player or coach.

I agree that most Fed and above umps know more about the rules than do Tim and Joe, but that's as far as it goes.
McCarver was successfully calling pitches for many years. He had to know hitters and tendancies, he had to adjust to batters as the game progressed and new pitchers came in, he was the field manager. You don't have a successful 20 year career in MLB as a catcher and be a dummy.
It's just like the NFL, you don't have to the brightest bulb on the team if you're playing nose tackle as long as you have great athletic skills, but skills will only get you so far at QB, eventually you have to show you're capable of grasping the mental side of the game.

Like him or not, he knows more about the game than 99.9% of the crowd.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Steve, I guess it depends on how you define expert.

If I was going to send my son for hitting lessons and I had a choice between Joe West, Joe Morgan or a 50 yr old great veteran umpire that played rec ball till he was 30, after much deliberation I'd probably pick Morgan.
If I wanted to learn about the strategies and secrets of infield play I'd pick Joe Morgan over Dana DeMuth.
If I was picking a mentor for my son, the catcher, and I had a choice between Tim McClelland and Tim McCarver I'm sorry I'd be picking McCarver.
If I wanted an indepth education on the nuances and strategies of the game of baseball I'd pick any MLB manager or player over any of the MLB umpires.

If I wanted to improve my umpire skills I'd pick any MLB, MiLB, NCAA, or Fed veteran umpire over any ball player or coach.

I agree that most Fed and above umps know more about the rules than do Tim and Joe, but that's as far as it goes.
McCarver was successfully calling pitches for many years. He had to know hitters and tendancies, he had to adjust to batters as the game progressed and new pitchers came in, he was the field manager. You don't have a successful 20 year career in MLB as a catcher and be a dummy.
It's just like the NFL, you don't have to the brightest bulb on the team if you're playing nose tackle as long as you have great athletic skills, but skills will only get you so far at QB, eventually you have to show you're capable of grasping the mental side of the game.

Like him or not, he knows more about the game than 99.9% of the crowd.

If I want to take batting lessons, I would go to Tony Gwynn. And, I took Coaching Baseball in college from renowned D-1 coach Jim Dietz of SDSU (before Tony Gwynn). All that on top of playing for X number of years. I readily admit that I can't hit like Tony Gwynn, coach like Jim Dietz, or play at any level resembling a major leaguer.

I played Varsity golf in HS, make custom golf clubs, and have a great knowledge of the sport of golf. Yet I can't come anywhere close to playing at Tiger Woods' level. But I could do a better job of broadcasting golf than Brent Musberger for sure.

But the subject here to start with was baseball rules knowledge, and the lack thereof on the part of Morgan and McCarver (and let's throw in Jim Palmer and Harold Reynolds while we're at it). These guys know how to play baseball better than we ever could, but they are horrible as broadcasters, because they don't study the rules of the game to the same degree as we do. They can be great color commentators, but then they open their mouths and just spew out nonsense when it comes to the rules. It has been well documented. I'm not making anything up here.

As long as we stick to the subject, which was rules butchering by Morgan and McCarver, we all must agree that these two know less overall about baseball than we give them credit for. I don't think either knows more about the game itself (not talking about specialized areas, such as batting or catching) than the average person who has played the game. They just played it better, and at a much higher level.

SDS - I think the relevant point you made here is that although both Morgan and McCarver played for many years and were good at their respective positions, and their color commentary analysis about the finer points of the game is ok, the fact is when they start to quote rules is the time they need to shut up and go to a different topic.

It has nothing to do with playing, coaching , managing or teaching. They just never bothered to learn the rules the way umpires do. As far as either of them coaching is concerned, if they were that good they would be coaching now. Coaching isn't about knowledge and understanding - it's about taking that knowledge and imparting it to a player - verbalizing and/or demonstrating. Not everyone can do it, just like not everyone is cut out to be an umpire.