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Old Wed May 02, 2007, 09:34pm
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Shoulder turn

OBR. what are you allowing or balking out there in regards to the shoulder turn towards 1b by RH F1? Any case studies or interps out there?

My scenario; RH F1 w/R1, in contact, from the stretch position, not set.

F1 makes a sudden and violent "turn of the shoulders", no foot movement, no arm motion, hands were still apart.

I balk him, I take that back, I call time, and "instruct" as we are asked to do for this first week of the season, these are U13's subjected to their first season of "lead offs, holding runners".

I explain: "you just made a fake to 1B without throwing".

So comments please: What are you allowing or not, under OBR, for "shoulder turns":

1. from the stretch

2. from the set
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Old Wed May 02, 2007, 10:18pm
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I hate being a contarian

Sound,

If you are absolutely, totally, completely, 100%, cross my heart and hope to die sure he was faking to 1B in this case, balk him.

Other than that, he's legal. He is not doing himself any good by doing this, and if he is 13, he will figure out that this does him no good in time. But just because it looks wierd it doesn't mean he's balked.
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Old Wed May 02, 2007, 11:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tyler
They just have to be parallel to the plate at the same time the hands come together.
Nope.
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Old Thu May 03, 2007, 12:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tyler
They just have to be parallel to the plate at the same time the hands come together.
Steven, are you 100% sure about that?
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Old Thu May 03, 2007, 06:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tyler
This is a legal move if the pitcher hasn't brought his hands together.
that's the FED rule; the OP asked about OBR.

OBR doesn't mention anything about the shoulder turn, it discusses a feint to first. The faster the move and the "bigger" the move, the more it's likely to be a feint. More movement is generally allowed before coming set.

My guess from the original description is that this was a balk -- F1 doesn't make a "sudden and violent" turn just to see where R1 might be.
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Old Sat May 05, 2007, 07:26pm
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Thumbs up

I'm feeling likeI'm leaning towards; ruling this tougher than most. Not sure if I am, I've never called the "slight", "gentle" shoulder turn peek from the stretch, maybe, I/we should be. I only see it at the younger ages, say 15 under.

Maybe it's just something we've learned to ignore during these years.
I gotta say I just haven't noticed it much at least til this year.

I know I never did it, while F1, 7 years on the mound, with a year of Div. 1.
Never had an F1 do it while I was a runner, least that I can recall.

Never coached it in 14 years with 13-18 year olds. In fact told em not to once in contact. I always thought it was a balk.

I've been glued to BB on the tube, for a good 20 hours now, college and pro, I haven't seen one pitcher turn his shoulder while in the stretch.
Every "non plodding" baserunner is off the bag, as, or just before the F1 comes in contact. I've had a couple comments like: well it doesn't matter as no good runner is gonna get his lead untl F1 comes set anyway. What the?

Would you allow the same amount of shoulder turn for LH F1 to first?

How bout RH towards 3B?

How about either L or R towards 2nd?

I know I'm thinking like a base runner here, but, an agressive BR getting a threatning lead, so as to dare the throw, should be able too.
Without deception by F1 while he's in contact. (throws are good if I'm on offense, throws can go bad.)

Other balks are called regardless of the F1's hands apart or not. Dropped ball comes to mind.

I'm looking in this old HS case book, I mean old (it doesn't even have one WEB address, anywhere in it!) 1997.

6.1.1g Reads:
PLAY: Bases loaded. Can F1, while on the pitchers plate in the windup position, legally (a) fake a throw to first or (b) in the set position, prior to beginning the stretch, turn a shoulder and glance at the runner?
RULING: No. That would be a balk in a and b.

What is "the set position, prior to beginning the stretch"..?

Sounds like; in contact, and peering in to get a sign?

Has it changed in the FED? And the younger guys are copying the big brothers as some one else suggested?

I've become "the talk" of the local league where this came up orginally, that's okay, I've worked two additonal games there since, and guess what? No or very, very, minimal shoulder turns while in contact.

More comments please:
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Old Sat May 05, 2007, 07:37pm
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In FED, turning the shoulder to look at 1B prior to the stretch (before coming set) is legal. Once set, its a balk if he turns the shoulder.
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Old Sat May 05, 2007, 07:45pm
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"In FED, turning the shoulder to look at 1B prior to the stretch (before coming set) is legal. Once set, its a balk if he turns the shoulder."

Ah, I see it now, from J/R. NFHS, 6-1-1-- If an in contact pitcher turns his shoulders to check a runner, it is a balk, unless the pitcher is in the stretch position and has not yet begun his motion to set.

So, you that work Fed and others, do you call it the same?
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Last edited by soundedlikeastrike; Sun May 06, 2007 at 01:26am.
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Old Sat May 05, 2007, 08:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike
"In FED, turning the shoulder to look at 1B prior to the stretch (before coming set) is legal. Once set, its a balk if he turns the shoulder."

Ah, I see it now, from J/R. NFHS, 6-1-1-- If an in contact pitcher turns his shoulders to check a runner, it is a balk, unless the pticher is in the stretch position and has not yet begun his motion to set.

So, you that work Fed and others, do you call it the same?
If that's what J/R said, he's wrong. The restriction begins when F1 joins his hands -- not when he begins his motion to come set.

And, before F1 joins his hands, I would give more leeway in FED -- not that I've seen F1 turn more in FED than in other codes. After F1 joins his hands, I treat the codes the same.

Last edited by bob jenkins; Sat May 05, 2007 at 08:15pm.
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