Shoulder Turn

[bossman72]

A few questions about the RHP "shoulder turn to first" balk:

1) What rule is he breaking when he does that?

2) Say a pitcher is in the process of bringing his hands together to come set, and he turns his shoulders to first, then comes set with his shoulders pointing towards home. illegal?

3) Pitcher is set. He turns his shoulders toward first, then turns them back and in the same motion delivers home (no pause after the shoulder turn). illegal?

4) This one is slightly hard to describe, but i'll try. Pitcher comes set with his shoulders pointed towards first (not directly towards first, but like a few feet up the line), and his hips and feet are set as they normally are. Is this a legal set position even though his shoulders are turned toward first?



I appreciate you guys helping me out with these.


bossman

PS- this site is a great resource for all umpires!

[blueump]

Originally posted by bossman72
A few questions about the RHP "shoulder turn to first" balk:

1) What rule is he breaking when he does that?

2) Say a pitcher is in the process of bringing his hands together to come set, and he turns his shoulders to first, then comes set with his shoulders pointing towards home. illegal?

3) Pitcher is set. He turns his shoulders toward first, then turns them back and in the same motion delivers home (no pause after the shoulder turn). illegal?

4) This one is slightly hard to describe, but i'll try. Pitcher comes set with his shoulders pointed towards first (not directly towards first, but like a few feet up the line), and his hips and feet are set as they normally are. Is this a legal set position even though his shoulders are turned toward first?



I appreciate you guys helping me out with these.


bossman

PS- this site is a great resource for all umpires!

Sit #1 NFHS rule 6-1-1

"Turning the shoulders to check runners while in contact with the pitcher's plate in the set position is legal. Turning the shoulders after bringing the hands together during or after the stretch is a balk"

Rule is pretty clear...so here goes my try:

Sit #2 - balk
Sit #3 - balk
Sit #4 - sounds like an "open" set to me, no shoulder motion or "turning", no balk.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by bossman72
A few questions about the RHP "shoulder turn to first" balk:

1) What rule is he breaking when he does that?

2) Say a pitcher is in the process of bringing his hands together to come set, and he turns his shoulders to first, then comes set with his shoulders pointing towards home. illegal?

3) Pitcher is set. He turns his shoulders toward first, then turns them back and in the same motion delivers home (no pause after the shoulder turn). illegal?

4) This one is slightly hard to describe, but i'll try. Pitcher comes set with his shoulders pointed towards first (not directly towards first, but like a few feet up the line), and his hips and feet are set as they normally are. Is this a legal set position even though his shoulders are turned toward first?



I appreciate you guys helping me out with these.


bossman

PS- this site is a great resource for all umpires!

1. Fed Rule 6.1.1 "Turning the shoulders after bringing the hands together during or after the stretch is a balk."

2. same rule. balk

3. same rule balk. Can not turn shoulders.

4. I would have to see this and see how it is possible, but it sounds like its a balk. I am aware of an open stance to begin, but to end up this way?? As of now, Balk

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by bossman72
A few questions about the RHP "shoulder turn to first" balk:

1) What rule is he breaking when he does that?

2) Say a pitcher is in the process of bringing his hands together to come set, and he turns his shoulders to first, then comes set with his shoulders pointing towards home. illegal?

3) Pitcher is set. He turns his shoulders toward first, then turns them back and in the same motion delivers home (no pause after the shoulder turn). illegal?

4) This one is slightly hard to describe, but i'll try. Pitcher comes set with his shoulders pointed towards first (not directly towards first, but like a few feet up the line), and his hips and feet are set as they normally are. Is this a legal set position even though his shoulders are turned toward first?



I appreciate you guys helping me out with these.


bossman

PS- this site is a great resource for all umpires!

The prior answers were assuming FED rules; I'll give you the OBR take.

1. 8.05(b) - feinting a throw to 1B from the rubber, without throwing.

2. As long as he does it slowly and deliberately, it is generally not interpreted as a balk in OBR.

3. Again, as long as the shoulder turn is slow enough to not be judged a feint to 1B, then this would generally be allowed in OBR.

4. This is known as an "open stance," and is legal.

[bossman72]

how much do you let the pitcher turn his shoulders before you balk him?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by bossman72
how much do you let the pitcher turn his shoulders before you balk him?

Under OBR? As much as you wnat until you think the motion is feinting a throw. There's nothing in OBR about "turning the shoulders."

[bossman72]

yeah all coaches in my area want a balk as soon as they move their shoulders a little bit.

what would be a good guideline to use?

[cowbyfan1]

Originally posted by bossman72
yeah all coaches in my area want a balk as soon as they move their shoulders a little bit.

what would be a good guideline to use?

your judgement. I personally look not so much at the shoulder turn but if he seperates his hands or lifts his hands like he is going to throw to first but doesn't, ie a bit of an arm pump.